Saturday, November 04, 2006


STRANGERS WHEN WE MEET
(Retold by Rex Ray 11-14-06)
Denton, Texas 1978: a young black man asked an older man (Hez) if a house was for rent.
“No, it’s for sale. Where’re you from?
“No one has heard of my town, Yellow Knife, Canada.”
“I spent two weeks there. “How come you’re so far from home?
“I was on a high school hockey team that won a gold medal in the first Artic Winter Games in 1968. They gave us a four year scholarship and now I’m working on a PHD. I almost didn’t get to play as there was a fuss if I was eligible or not. They called some American to decide. If it hadn’t been for him, I’d be working in the gold minds now.”
Hez said, “So you got to play even thought you’d only been in that school 5 weeks.”
“How’d you know that?”
“I’m that American.”
After a hug, Hez explained his two weeks in Yellow Knife helping to organize the games. At the time, he was Parks and Recreation Director of Fairbanks, Alaska and had been selected by the governor to explain to Canada why Alaska was not going to participate as they didn’t have the money. They planed for only adults to participate. Hez told the authorities he wouldn’t walk across the street to see some old guys play games, but he’d work hard to help kids play, and others would too. They howled that’d cost too much money. Hez said Alaska was out if they didn’t include kids, and they finally agreed. The Alaska governor threw a fit, but Hez organized a benefit drive and they had the games.
Today, twenty-seven countries are in the Artic Winter Games. The present authorities want to celebrate their 40th anniversary in 2008 with Hez meeting the hockey player again, but no one remembers the player’s name. Does anyone know?
Hez is my twin brother.
Rex Ray


Sunday November 5, 2006 by Rex Ray
Art Rogers suggested I put this comment on my blog.

The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy [10 pages]
Preface
Page 1: [We] do not propose that this Statement be given creedal weight.

[Does this mean a person does NOT have to agree with ‘inerrancy’ to be in the SBC? A pastor said the Bible was the true word of God and the perfect message to mankind, but the Bible was not inerrant. Said he had been given the name ‘moderate’ and guessed he didn’t belong. He was told on October 24, 2006, “I do not believe the SBC is the best convention for your participation and cooperation.”

Is this not “creedal weight’?

Articles of Affirmation and Denial
Page 3, Article 2: We deny that church creeds, councils, or declarations have authority greater than or equal to the authority of the Bible.

[The BFM is “our doctrinal guideline” which tells what the Bible means and that would make it higher than the Bible. If it continues until it covers all points of the Bible, the Bible will be replaced by man’s words.]

Page 4, Article 9: We affirm that inspiration, through not conferring omniscience, guaranteed true and trustworthy utterances on all matters of which the Biblical authors were moved to speak and write. We deny that the finitude or falseness of these writers, by necessity or otherwise, introduced distortion or falsehood into God’s Word.

[How can Bible writers have “true and trustworthy utterances on all matters”, and on the other hand, write “falseness”?]

Page 5, Article 14: We deny that alleged errors and discrepancies that have not yet been resolved violate the truth claims of the Bible.

[In Ecclesiastes 1:5, the writer said the sun travels around the earth. I agree this error does not disprove John 3:16.]

Page 5, Article 19: We affirm that a confession of the full authority, infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture is vital to a sound understanding of the whole of Christian faith. We further affirm that such confession should lead to increasing conformity to the image of Christ.

[Is this saying if a person believes in “infallibility” of Scripture but NOT “inerrancy” of Scripture, that person is a second class Christian because they cannot “understand” the whole of Christian faith, and cannot have “increasing conformity to the image of Christ?
Sounds like Jews believing they were better Christians that Gentiles even though Paul said Jews were the weaker brother because Jews thought they couldn’t eat meat sacrificed to idols.]

Page 5, More on Article 19: We further deny that inerrancy can be rejected without grave consequences, both to the individual and to the Church.

[Does “grave consequences” mean burned at the stake, rejected from the SBC, or only snubbed?]

Exposition
The truthfulness of Scripture is not negated by…reports of false statements (for example, the lies of Satan), or seeming discrepancies between one passage and another. Where for the present no convincing solution is at hand we shall significantly honor God by trusting His assurance that His Word is true, despite these appearances, and by maintaining our confidence that one day they will be seen to have been illusions.

[1. “Reports of false statements (for example, the lies of Satan.)”
Would false statements also include man’s ignorance, bad memory, confusion, deception, and stupidity?
2. “Where for the present no convincing solution is at hand we shall significantly honor God [tell God] by trusting His assurance [or the Chicago assurance] that His Word is true [except for the untruth of man.]
3. “One day they [discrepancies] will be seen to have been illusions.”
Is this saying one day parts of the Bible will be as an illusion; that it’s not inerrant today, but one day it will be inerrant?

To be inerrantists, you must see parts of the Bible as illusions, and believe those that can’t see illusions are second class Christians.
Hey! That’s right up there with the king having a perfect suit until someone said he was naked
I believe the devil hit a homerun by getting Christians fighting over one word. A better word for ‘fighting’ is ‘persecution’ of moderates by inerrantists.

In summery of the Chicago Statement, I’d say it’s a recipe that ‘conservatives’ have for believing the Bible.
Moderates have their own receipt for believing the Bible and both recipes produce the same Gospel, the same major beliefs, and even the same minor beliefs.
So why argue which recipe has to be accepted when they produce the same ‘cake’? (Last line stolen from Bob Cleveland)
Rex Ray

10 Comments:

Blogger T2TF said...

Rex,

Here is a copy of what I submitted to the other post we have been commenting on. I'm not sure when the good pastor will get to posting them and wanted you to have your answers.

I'm not afraid of you or your outrageous comments. I will continue to speak the truth regardless of your lies and distortions about me, my religion, the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Mr. Rex,

Your comments are pretty nasty and untrue. The point of my comments were not to take up space on this blog with comments that were unrelated to the topic. I'm not afraid to answer any of your questions. It actually made me laugh reading your silly comments.

What Bible do you use? I use the King James Version and Isaiah 64:6 in my Bible reads, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags". Israel is humbly praying for the Second coming in this chapter. See verse 5, "Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness" How can someone work righteousness, by following the commandments of Jesus. We are all sinners and are in need of a Savior. Israel is recognizing her weaknesses. That's all.

Let's read Acts 2:27, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." So we have read it now we must know who is speaking. Peter is speaking here, (verse 14) and he is actually quoting David in Psalms 16 when David is pleading for his own soul. Pay close attention to verses 8-11 of the Psalm.

It most certainly isn't referring to the soul of Jesus Christ!

You question my comments on Hebrews 2:27, which is actually Hebrews 9:27. Sir, we are not immediately judged when we die. There is a time between death, the resurrection and judgment. Again, the gospel will be preached to those who are dead. I already clarified this for you so I won't repeat myself. You focus your efforts on the word WAS. So, on your standard who are the people that the word WAS is referring to? Please share! What happens to all of the people who have lived on the earth but never heard the gospel? What happens to them?

So you liked my wonderful words. Why thank you. I'm only quoting scripture and you apparently don't like them. Well my friend, as Christ said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heave. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in they name done many wonderful works? An then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

You want a reply about James. Here it is: The writer is generally thought of as the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1: 19), the son of Mary, and is mentioned in Acts 12: 17; Acts 15: 13; Gal. 2: 9. The epistle, which is addressed to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, was probably written from Jerusalem, but the date is not known. It may be one of the earlier epistles of the N.T. In the epistle are found some clearly stated items about practical religion, including the important advice of James 1: 5-6 that if one lacks wisdom, he should ask of God for help. This instructive passage inspired Joseph Smith to inquire of the Lord in 1820 as to the true church, and as a consequence the Father and the Son appeared to him and the dispensation of the fulness of times was launched (JS-H 1: 9-20). Among other important teachings of James are those that have to do with faith and works (ch. 2); the need to control the unruly tongue (ch. 3); an exhortation to patience (ch. 5); calling the elders for a blessing when sick (James 5: 14-16); and the desirability of being an instrument of conversion in the life of even one other person (James 5: 19-20).

I hope this satisfies your inquiry.

My friend Rex, you read your Bible but you do not understand your Bible. If you would like further enlightening, please continue to ask and I'll see what I can do.

Volfan007, No, we don't worship 3 gods. We worship Jesus Christ who is the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father. The other member of the Godhead is the Holy Ghost.

God the Father is our Eternal Father in Heaven. He is the Father of our spirits and is the creator of the plan of salvation. Through Jesus Christ, under the direction of God the Father, all things were created. I hope that answers your question. If not, I can provide you with more details.

You say your Jesus is not my Jesus but give no explanation how you come to this conclusion. Please share because I think our terminology is different which causes some confusion.

I won't even dignify your comments about Joseph Smith and the false accusations you perpetuate against him.

SelahV, You harshness belies your lovely pictures on your website. Do you know the answers to 3 simple questions: 1. Where did we come from? 2. Why are we here? 3. Where are we going? If that's what you mean when you blithely comment that I have death and life all figured out, then the answer is yes. I do know the answers to those questions and I have tried to share that information with you but you are the one who seems not to care about the answers. You casually dismiss the truthfulness of my comments saying you don't know how I believe what I do and still believe the Book of Mormon. Well, since many of my comments come from the Book of Mormon, I guess it would stand to reason that they are parallel. Please explain why I shouldn't believe the Book of Mormon holding the comments true that I have given. You referencing of Matt. 10:14 sent me right back on my mission in Japan. I laughed at the arrogance of those who quote that scripture and do so now.

If you want to converse on this subject or any other, I'd be happy to oblige. Mr. Rex says I quit on the conversation because I was wearing a dunce cap. Please spare me the insults and let's discuss the gospel of Jesus Christ and His teachings.

So, Mr. Rex, Volfan007 and SelahV,
please explain to all of us with pertinent and relevant scripture the answers to my 3 questions. I eagerly await your responses. In addition, please explain Isaiah 29 particularly verses 9 - 15. What is the book? What is the marvelous work and wonder?

Who is it that Jesus is referring to in John 7:16-17? Who is Jesus praying to in the great intercessory prayer in John 17, paying attention to all the references to the Father? Please don't tell me he is praying to himself!

Those who really want to know the true gospel of Jesus Christ will hear it and those who don't will continue to muddle around in the philosophies of men.

10:16 PM  
Blogger T2TF said...

Rex,

I just read your comments about me going to hell. Please don't worry about me going to hell. Kind of an arrogant statement from one who continually misquotes scripture to serve his purpose. I'm definitely not perfect but I'm not going to hell.

Anyway, I answered all of your questions but you didn't answer any of mine. Why not? I eagerly await your answers using scripture for your understanding.

I don't take pride in refuting every one of your assertions as all I'm trying to do is gain understanding and defend the gospel of Jesus Christ. As I told Selah, over the internet isn't the best way as it is slow and we are unable to understand ones true intentions.

However, I would love to see your answers to my questions. If Brad wants to jump in too, that would be fine.

I hope you enjoy the AZ weather as Mesa is my hometown. Go to Matta's on Main Street for some excellent Mexican food. Be sure to stop by the Mesa Temple on Main Street as well and go through the Visitor's Center. It could be very productive for you.

I truly hope your brother gets well soon.

Scott

8:35 PM  
Blogger Rex Ray said...

Scott,
I will continue to answer your 9 questions, but before I do, I want to back up and make a statement that I believe. You and others may jump on me for saying this, but here goes.

The curse of death that God put on man happened the day Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. They died just like God said they would, and that was a spiritual death only. Jesus did not pay for a physical death or Christians would never die a physical death. Christians never die a spiritual death. God planned from the beginning that man would die and then live again. If man was going to live forever on earth, the tree of life had no significance. God has never made two laws that contradict one another. One law (tree of life) did not contradict his law that man would die a physical death because God’s curse was never a physical death. Do you see what I’m saying? All are going to live forever—in heaven or hell.

Question 5: You ask an explanation of Isaiah 29 particularly verse 9-15.

This was prophecies concerning Judah how they would be conquered by their ignorance to see what was happening.

Question 6: What is the book?

The “book” is a metaphor that contains the future events of their destruction, but it is sealed to those that are learned. “To others” reminds me of my father (school principal) on the first day of school, telling my mother to have her class write one page on what they had done during the summer. She told him they couldn’t do that.
“Nonsense, I want everyone to start writing now and bring it to me when you’ve finished.”
This girl brought him her paper full of marks. He said, “Honey, what does this say?”
“I don’t know; I can’t read,” replied the first grader.
Scott, I know where you’re headed—you think this book refers to the Book of Mormon, but it really means my book “The Truth of Acts.” Thanks for bringing my attention to it.

Question 7: What is the marvelous work and wonder?

Verse 14: “…I will [do] a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish.” Scott, the marvelous work and wonder is as the New Living Bible says in verse 14: “Therefore I will take awesome vengeance on these hypocrites, and make their wisest counselors as fools.”
Scott, I know you are hinting that the Book of Mormon is the marvelous work and wonder. How can you take a word here and a word there out of context, put them together, and make an ignorant theology?

Verse 13 (New Living Bible) should be a warning to all of us; “And so the Lord says, “These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules.”
Jesus quotes this verse in Mark 7:7 “…They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commands of men.” Wake up Scott, Jesus is talking to all of us.

Question 8: Who is Jesus referring to in John: 16-17?

The Living Bible makes these verses very plain: “So Jesus told them, “I’m not teaching you my own thoughts, but those of God who sent me. If any of you really determines to do God’s will, then you will certainly know whether my teaching is from God or is merely my own.” Scott the short answer is: Jesus was referring to his Father.

Question 9: Who is Jesus praying to in John 17? (Please don’t tell me he is praying to himself.)

In the Living Bible, Jesus said “Father” 6 times, and “you” or “yours” (referring to God), 49 times. He was praying to God. What is the point of your question? How can you defend your question as NOT being an ignorant question?

Scott, Hebrews 6:1-2 ought to give you a clue that the Book of Mormon is not needed to give any needed information for Christians. “Let us stop going over the same old ground again and again, always teaching those first lessons about Christ…Surely we don’t need to speak further about the foolishness of trying to be saved by being good, or about the necessity of faith in God; you don’t need further instruction about baptism and spiritual gifts and the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD AND ETERNAL JUDGMENT.”
That’s it Scott, what the Bible says is all God intended his children to have. You need to heed Scripture (Living Bible) such as in Colossians: “I am saying this because I am afraid that someone may fool you with smooth talk. (2:4)
“Don’t let others spoil your faith and joy with their philosophies, their wrong and shallow answers built on men’s thoughts and ideas, instead of what Christ has said.” (2:8)
“Don’t let anyone declare you lost when you refuse to worship angels, as they say you must. They [Smith?] have seen a vision, they say, and know you should. These proud men…have a very clever imagination.” (2:18)
“If you hear of people [Smith?] having visions and special messages from God…don’t believe them. Don’t be carried away and deceived regardless of what they say. (2 Thessalonians 2: 2-3)
“Evil men and false teacher will become worse and worse, deceiving many, they themselves having been deceived by Satan.” “They won’t listen to what the Bible says but will blithely follow their own misguided ideas.” [Book of Mormon?] (2 Timothy 3: 13 4:4)

I’m replying to your comment as you wrote it. You said for me not to worry about you going to hell. Let me ask you: Have you ever felt lost? (If not the Holy Spirit has never convicted you and you can never be saved until He does—No man comes to the Father unless I draw him.[not an exact quote]) Did you ask Jesus to save you? (If you have, you will be in heaven even in your ignorance—along with me and my ignorance in heaven.)

You say I misquote Scripture for my purpose, but you gave no example. Am I just supposed to believe you?
You say you have answered all my questions, but where have you written even one of my questions and gave a reply?
You say I didn’t answer any of your questions. But you asked me to explain 1 Peter 4:6, “For this cause WAS the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

I did a copy—paste on my answer: There are two ways to look at the word “WAS”. WAS your great grandfather preached the Gospel before he died, or WAS your great grandfather preached the Gospel after he died?

BTW, you never told me when your great grandfather WAS preached the gospel. Maybe that’s too far back—what about your grandfather or your father?

When my brother told me goodbye this week, he was so weak he never took a pillow off his head.
Rex Ray

8:16 PM  
Blogger David Rogers said...

Rex,

Well, I`ve skimmed through everything here. I won't lie to you and say I've read it all carefully. But, I think I've read enough to get the gist of what you are saying.

I was not familiar with what you say about James. I would have to do my "homework" to have any intelligent comment. You may say I am brain-washed, but I still believe James, though he struggled to overcome his Jewish background and embrace the full message of grace, was genuinely inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what he wrote in Holy Scripture. I also cannot get past how, if God is perfect and omniscient, he could inspire men to write error. There are many false characterizations of what people like myself mean by inerrancy. That is why something like the Chicago Statement is helpful.

To get much deeper than this would probably require spending more time on this than I could justify right now, and others have done a much better job of defending these points than I am able to do, so I guess I'll leave it at that for now.

In any case, I pray God will continue to guide you into truth. I hope we both will continue to have an open mind and a submissive heart towards the Holy Spirit.

11:26 AM  
Blogger Rex Ray said...

March 5, 2007
David Rogers,
Thanks for the sincere reply.

I think you would agree that God does not inspire untruth. What man does in the Bible is his own free will given by God. God let Moses “hit” the rock knowing Moses was not giving honor to him. Moses did not have the faith to obey God to speak to the rock for water. He and his brother decided that Moses should hit the rock since that had worked before. For that reason they were not allowed to go into the promise land. (Numbers)

When Moses wrote, “The Lord was angry with me also because of you and said: ‘You will not enter there either.’” (Deuteronomy 1:37)
“But the Lord was angry with me on account of you…” (Deuteronomy 3:26)
“The Lord was angry with me on your account. He swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.” (Deuteronomy 4:21)

The question is: Were the words of Moses ‘inspired’ in Deuteronomy when Moses did not admit his sin but put all the blame on the people? In other words, it’s true that Moses spoke his words, but his words were not true. Thus, Scripture is true even if some words are not true in the Bible.

David, you know all the while I’m writing Moses, I’m thinking James did the same thing. It goes back to what James DID in Acts 15. What he did in essence was to contradict salvation as a gift because of tradition and him being so popular, his “decision” (as judge?) was accepted over Peter’s.

So, when reading the book of James, I see him still backing up his decision which I believe was false, therefore some of his writing was not inspired because they are not true just like some words of Moses.

I won’t expect a reply, but someday when you have more time, you might dwell more in depth. I struggled ten years with this before I started writing.
Rex Ray

5:23 AM  
Blogger David Rogers said...

Rex,

As I understand it, the Bible infallibly records, along with other things, the sometimes fallible words, thoughts and deeds of fallible human beings. That doesn't mean the Bible is mistaken, though.

The Chicago statement, and most any other responsible description of "inerrancy" points out this "caveat." I don't believe this is back-pedaling. I believe it is pretty much common sense. No one ever claimed, that I am aware, that everyone, even generally godly people, were always correct in everything they said or did that is narrated in the Bible.

However, when the Biblical authors write in such a way, as to infer they are transmitting God's authoritative will and guidance to us (such as, for example, what James writes in the epistle of James), we can be confident they are speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and are thus kept from error by His supernatural intervention and supervision.

That's how I see it, at least.

1:02 PM  
Blogger Rex Ray said...

Just seeing if my name will work.

2:14 PM  
Blogger Dave Miller said...

Rex,

I just want you know I enjoy the back and forth and would enjoy carrying it on. I don't know if Wade's blog is the best place.

10:56 AM  
Blogger Rex Ray said...

December 2, 2007
Dave Miller
I was surprised to see your comment; I haven’t checked my blog in a long time as comments are very far apart.

You’re right that we are off of Wade’s topic.

I’ve enjoyed Wade’s blog and admire what he has accomplished. I’ve written quite a few letters to the Baptist Standard, but decided it was ‘preaching’ to the choir. Wade’s blog is sure not the choir.

PS I type the date on my comments as I don’t know how to set it up.

12:57 PM  
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