Salvation a Gift or by "Necessary Things?"
A probably conversation among the ‘multitude’ of Life Jackets:
“Can you imagine our leaders wanting us to decide if Gentiles can become Christians? We are God’s chosen people. Not those pagans. They’re dogs!”
“But they say God’s Spirit has been given to everyone.”
“Well, they will have to obey all of our laws.”
“Paul and Peter say anyone can go to heaven by the gift of Jesus.”
“Outrageous! That’s what you can expect of a man who lives with Gentiles. Paul helped kill Stephen and put us in prison, now he’s blaspheming God’s laws. We ought to stone him. James’ men got Peter in line until Paul brainwashed him. Lets get James’ men to object to this nonsense.”
Ex-Pharisees were spokesmen for Life Jackets and may have been the men from James that argued with Paul. (Acts 15:1,2)
“...men who had been Pharisees...declared all Gentile converts must be circumcised and required to follow all the Jewish customs and ceremonies. So the apostles and church elders set a further meeting to decide this question.” (Acts 15:5,6)
There’s no record of this meeting, but probably the elders didn’t disagree with Peter and Paul and James must have held his thoughts until he had more backing from the multitude.
They met with the church again.
“And when there had been much disputing, [Probably by the same Pharisees] Peter rose up and said...He cleansed their lives through faith, just as he did ours. And now are you going to correct God by burdening Gentiles with a yoke [laws]...Don’t you believe that all are saved the same way by the free gift of the Lord Jesus?" (Acts 15:7-11)
Then all the multitude kept silence [Had they been yelling encouragement to the Pharisees? Did their silence mean they agreed or were they baffled like the Pharisees when Jesus stomped their trick questions in the ground?] and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul...what miracles God had done...” (Acts 15:10,11)
Life Jackets heard proof that God saved Gentiles without laws. The debate was over. All men could go to heaven by the free gift of Jesus.
The multitude was whipped. Peter gave the decision of their private meeting as he remember and shamed the multitude for trying to correct God. The big mistake Peter and Paul made at the private meeting was not putting in writing what was agreed upon.
Jewish laws were no longer important for salvation. The Gentiles were getting free what Jews had labored for all their lives.
All heads turned as James took the floor. The Just had a reputation of being holy from birth, like Jesus in appearance and method of conduct, and hero of Pharisees.
Had the multitude agreed with Pharisees that all men should obey the Just? Their authoritative pastor was their last hope.
“Say those pagans have to obey our laws.”
The apostles probably thought James would sum up what they had agreed in their private meeting, but why should he, a teacher of religion, (James 3:1) learn from a mere fisherman such as Peter? He had not mentioned his ideas at the private meeting or Paul would have bit his ears off.
James started out quoting Peter but where he ended up has been debated 2,000 years.
James was so skillful, even today, some can’t see the harm he did to the teachings of Jesus.
He bragged on Peter before stabbing him and Jesus in the back:
“Brothers, listen to me! Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles...Gentile conversion agrees with what the prophets predicted…so my judgment [Why was he the judge? Was he a pope?] is that we should not insist that the Gentiles who turn to God must obey our Jewish laws, [Here’s the knife] except that we should write to them to abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (Acts 15:13-20)
James, the pastor, had made an amendment to Peter’s: “free gift of Christ.”
They don’t have to but they have to.
Was that confusing? The devil loves confusion.
That’s like saying, “He is a good man, except.” Anything after “except” is detrimental and contradicts what was said previously.
The gift of Jesus was free, and the law of James was tradition for he said, “...these things have been preached...for many generations.” (Acts 15:21) Jesus told the religious teachers, “You are trampling under your feet God’s laws for the sake of tradition.” (Mark 7:9)
Were the apostles astonished? That’s not what we agreed on!
Peter, don’t you remember the warning of Jesus? “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I [Jesus] am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.” (Matt. 24:5-6)
No one could say they were Jesus and come in His name.
Paul do something! Object to James’ judgment or the rest of your life you will be writing against his rules for salvation.
In fact, your writings (“You are certainly free to eat food offered to idols...it is not against God’s laws to eat such meat.” (1 Cor. 10:23), “When you are guided by the Holy Spirit you need no longer force yourself to obey Jewish laws.” (Gal. 5:18) “The old way...keeping the ten commandments ends in death.” 2 Cor. 3:6) will cause James and his elders to charge you of being against the laws of Moses. (Acts 21:21)
If Paul objected, he could not be heard over the roar of the multitude cheering for James.
The Bishop of Jerusalem and brother of Jesus had saved the day. Gentiles were not going to get a “free gift”.
God’s laws had prevailed! Even ex-Pharisees were happy about the fact that their church had the right to decide what was proper teaching.
They would be trying to add their thinking as a PS to James’ letter before the ink was dry.
Being spokesmen for the multitude, these former Pharisees may have been chosen as elders in days to come.
If the devil ever attended any believer’s meeting, he would have been present at this one. They decided how Gentiles were saved. Wasn’t that ironic?
After Peter saw the Holy Spirit fall on Gentiles, the Jews decided if God knew what He was doing.
They ignored a man trained by Jesus and agreed with James who decided the Holy Spirit could not save without a few laws.
They ignored the true words of a man whose shadow healed the sick and chose a man’s opinion that probably never saw a miracle much less produced one.
While his buddies flogged the apostles in the temple, James probably ran to the holy place.
He had a moonlight job on Sunday of preaching to Christians. The rest of the week, he was receiving the praise of man because of his praying for God’s blessings.
Years ago, our popular pastor wanted to move from the parsonage and buy a house. There was no money in the budget for a housing allowance. The church had money in a building fund, but was paying 18% interest on a loan. The deacons made a motion that we pay the loan off with the building fund and save 18% interest.
Then pay the building fund back with the same monthly payments.
At the church meeting, the pastor made an amendment that the building fund not be reimbursed. The deacons thought that was dishonest but sat their dumbfounded.
The pastor bought a house and made the payments with the ‘extra’ money in the budget.
If our preacher had quoted James exactly, he would have said, ‘I’m in favor of the motion “except” we write that we don’t reimburse the building fund.’
‘Except’ did away with reimbursing the building fund just as James’ ‘except’ did away with the gift of Christ. Jesus taught that only believing in Him was His plan to unite man with God.
This was radical thinking to the Christian Jew. The width of line between ‘works’ as a result of being right withGod and ‘works’ to remain that way can be measured by the distance between non-Catholic and Catholic or by the distance between the words of Peter and James in Acts 15.
How can anyone say James’s words did not conflict with Peter’s words?
First, he must believe that any good man’s opinion written in the Bible is from God. So he interprets both men’s words until they agree, and if that doesn’t work, he accepts they agree by faith.
Faith not based on truth is false belief.
After business meetings, the only agreement you can count on is what is in writing.
A letter was sent to Gentiles: “For it was the Holy Spirit's decision--and ours--to put no greater burden than these NECESSARY THINGS.” (Acts 15:24,28)
Did the Holy Spirit correct God by burdening the Gentiles with laws as Peter had warned? Peter may have thought there wasn’t much harm in writing Gentiles to do good as a result of being saved, but the letter OMITTED, Peter’s “saved by the gift of Jesus”, and ADDED “necessary” to James’ laws.
That made it possible to argue Gentiles must obey or go to hell: “...if anyone has slipped away from God and no longer trusts the Lord, [Going to hell by not doingworks?] and someone helps him understand the Truth again, [Started works?] that person who brings him back to God [Restored toGod twice?] will have saved a wandering soul from death.” (James5:19)
The church council set a precedent that men could rule over men and the roots of Catholics began.
“Necessary things” was the answer Gentiles received how to go to heaven.
“Can you imagine our leaders wanting us to decide if Gentiles can become Christians? We are God’s chosen people. Not those pagans. They’re dogs!”
“But they say God’s Spirit has been given to everyone.”
“Well, they will have to obey all of our laws.”
“Paul and Peter say anyone can go to heaven by the gift of Jesus.”
“Outrageous! That’s what you can expect of a man who lives with Gentiles. Paul helped kill Stephen and put us in prison, now he’s blaspheming God’s laws. We ought to stone him. James’ men got Peter in line until Paul brainwashed him. Lets get James’ men to object to this nonsense.”
Ex-Pharisees were spokesmen for Life Jackets and may have been the men from James that argued with Paul. (Acts 15:1,2)
“...men who had been Pharisees...declared all Gentile converts must be circumcised and required to follow all the Jewish customs and ceremonies. So the apostles and church elders set a further meeting to decide this question.” (Acts 15:5,6)
There’s no record of this meeting, but probably the elders didn’t disagree with Peter and Paul and James must have held his thoughts until he had more backing from the multitude.
They met with the church again.
“And when there had been much disputing, [Probably by the same Pharisees] Peter rose up and said...He cleansed their lives through faith, just as he did ours. And now are you going to correct God by burdening Gentiles with a yoke [laws]...Don’t you believe that all are saved the same way by the free gift of the Lord Jesus?" (Acts 15:7-11)
Then all the multitude kept silence [Had they been yelling encouragement to the Pharisees? Did their silence mean they agreed or were they baffled like the Pharisees when Jesus stomped their trick questions in the ground?] and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul...what miracles God had done...” (Acts 15:10,11)
Life Jackets heard proof that God saved Gentiles without laws. The debate was over. All men could go to heaven by the free gift of Jesus.
The multitude was whipped. Peter gave the decision of their private meeting as he remember and shamed the multitude for trying to correct God. The big mistake Peter and Paul made at the private meeting was not putting in writing what was agreed upon.
Jewish laws were no longer important for salvation. The Gentiles were getting free what Jews had labored for all their lives.
All heads turned as James took the floor. The Just had a reputation of being holy from birth, like Jesus in appearance and method of conduct, and hero of Pharisees.
Had the multitude agreed with Pharisees that all men should obey the Just? Their authoritative pastor was their last hope.
“Say those pagans have to obey our laws.”
The apostles probably thought James would sum up what they had agreed in their private meeting, but why should he, a teacher of religion, (James 3:1) learn from a mere fisherman such as Peter? He had not mentioned his ideas at the private meeting or Paul would have bit his ears off.
James started out quoting Peter but where he ended up has been debated 2,000 years.
James was so skillful, even today, some can’t see the harm he did to the teachings of Jesus.
He bragged on Peter before stabbing him and Jesus in the back:
“Brothers, listen to me! Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles...Gentile conversion agrees with what the prophets predicted…so my judgment [Why was he the judge? Was he a pope?] is that we should not insist that the Gentiles who turn to God must obey our Jewish laws, [Here’s the knife] except that we should write to them to abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (Acts 15:13-20)
James, the pastor, had made an amendment to Peter’s: “free gift of Christ.”
They don’t have to but they have to.
Was that confusing? The devil loves confusion.
That’s like saying, “He is a good man, except.” Anything after “except” is detrimental and contradicts what was said previously.
The gift of Jesus was free, and the law of James was tradition for he said, “...these things have been preached...for many generations.” (Acts 15:21) Jesus told the religious teachers, “You are trampling under your feet God’s laws for the sake of tradition.” (Mark 7:9)
Were the apostles astonished? That’s not what we agreed on!
Peter, don’t you remember the warning of Jesus? “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I [Jesus] am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.” (Matt. 24:5-6)
No one could say they were Jesus and come in His name.
Paul do something! Object to James’ judgment or the rest of your life you will be writing against his rules for salvation.
In fact, your writings (“You are certainly free to eat food offered to idols...it is not against God’s laws to eat such meat.” (1 Cor. 10:23), “When you are guided by the Holy Spirit you need no longer force yourself to obey Jewish laws.” (Gal. 5:18) “The old way...keeping the ten commandments ends in death.” 2 Cor. 3:6) will cause James and his elders to charge you of being against the laws of Moses. (Acts 21:21)
If Paul objected, he could not be heard over the roar of the multitude cheering for James.
The Bishop of Jerusalem and brother of Jesus had saved the day. Gentiles were not going to get a “free gift”.
God’s laws had prevailed! Even ex-Pharisees were happy about the fact that their church had the right to decide what was proper teaching.
They would be trying to add their thinking as a PS to James’ letter before the ink was dry.
Being spokesmen for the multitude, these former Pharisees may have been chosen as elders in days to come.
If the devil ever attended any believer’s meeting, he would have been present at this one. They decided how Gentiles were saved. Wasn’t that ironic?
After Peter saw the Holy Spirit fall on Gentiles, the Jews decided if God knew what He was doing.
They ignored a man trained by Jesus and agreed with James who decided the Holy Spirit could not save without a few laws.
They ignored the true words of a man whose shadow healed the sick and chose a man’s opinion that probably never saw a miracle much less produced one.
While his buddies flogged the apostles in the temple, James probably ran to the holy place.
He had a moonlight job on Sunday of preaching to Christians. The rest of the week, he was receiving the praise of man because of his praying for God’s blessings.
Years ago, our popular pastor wanted to move from the parsonage and buy a house. There was no money in the budget for a housing allowance. The church had money in a building fund, but was paying 18% interest on a loan. The deacons made a motion that we pay the loan off with the building fund and save 18% interest.
Then pay the building fund back with the same monthly payments.
At the church meeting, the pastor made an amendment that the building fund not be reimbursed. The deacons thought that was dishonest but sat their dumbfounded.
The pastor bought a house and made the payments with the ‘extra’ money in the budget.
If our preacher had quoted James exactly, he would have said, ‘I’m in favor of the motion “except” we write that we don’t reimburse the building fund.’
‘Except’ did away with reimbursing the building fund just as James’ ‘except’ did away with the gift of Christ. Jesus taught that only believing in Him was His plan to unite man with God.
This was radical thinking to the Christian Jew. The width of line between ‘works’ as a result of being right withGod and ‘works’ to remain that way can be measured by the distance between non-Catholic and Catholic or by the distance between the words of Peter and James in Acts 15.
How can anyone say James’s words did not conflict with Peter’s words?
First, he must believe that any good man’s opinion written in the Bible is from God. So he interprets both men’s words until they agree, and if that doesn’t work, he accepts they agree by faith.
Faith not based on truth is false belief.
After business meetings, the only agreement you can count on is what is in writing.
A letter was sent to Gentiles: “For it was the Holy Spirit's decision--and ours--to put no greater burden than these NECESSARY THINGS.” (Acts 15:24,28)
Did the Holy Spirit correct God by burdening the Gentiles with laws as Peter had warned? Peter may have thought there wasn’t much harm in writing Gentiles to do good as a result of being saved, but the letter OMITTED, Peter’s “saved by the gift of Jesus”, and ADDED “necessary” to James’ laws.
That made it possible to argue Gentiles must obey or go to hell: “...if anyone has slipped away from God and no longer trusts the Lord, [Going to hell by not doingworks?] and someone helps him understand the Truth again, [Started works?] that person who brings him back to God [Restored toGod twice?] will have saved a wandering soul from death.” (James5:19)
The church council set a precedent that men could rule over men and the roots of Catholics began.
“Necessary things” was the answer Gentiles received how to go to heaven.
posted by Rex Ray at Saturday, June 17, 2006
43 Comments:
Since the pastor doesn't seem to want to post my last comments to you and Volfan, I thought I'd send them to you here.
Volfan, Mr. Rex Ray and all others,
Let me just start by saying this will be my last post on this subject. I stumbled upon this blog through a Google Alert referencing Mormons. I read how the Southern Baptist’s would dismiss a Mormon baptism (amongst others) because the Baptists don’t like what Mormons are baptized into, namely The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So I read and asked questions to inquire why the rejection of a few churches baptisms. It was enlightening, yet very frustrating to see the gospel of Jesus Christ being falsely preached.
When posting, I was immediately told that I belonged to a cult and I should get out instantly. I was also told that the teachings of my church were heretical and that the only scripture that God wanted us to have was the Bible.
Then came the insinuations that Joseph Smith was a fraud and he was a criminal and was not to be believed on anything.
I am truly surprised by the disdain that other purported and self-proclaimed Christian churches have for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Pastor Reynolds, put out this post of “What happens when I die?” A lot of what the good pastor says is true. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Since we do sin, we can not return to live with God and Jesus Christ because no unclean thing can dwell with them. It is contrary to their righteousness.
However, there are some things posted that are not true about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Namely, when we take our last breath, we are not judged at that time as far as our final judgment is concerned. The final judgment of man will be after the Millennium, the 1000 year period where Satan will be bound and have no influence over man and Christ has put Satan in his final hell forever. After the Millennium is when we will all be judged according to our works, whether they are good or bad. Please read Revelation 20 to understand this doctrine.
The Plan of Salvation is the most perfect plan created by our Father in Heaven. In the councils before we came to this earth there was a battle. Jesus wanted to fulfill the plan of God which was to allow us to have our agency and learn through obedience to the commandments. If this was done, we would be able to return to live with God. However, Lucifer wanted to change God’s plan and force everyone to God’s will, with no chance to choose for ourselves and then he wanted God’s glory in return. God rejected Lucifer and chose our Savior Jesus Christ to execute the plan. Unfortunately, over 1/3 of the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer and were cast out. They will never receive a body, ever.
Here we are on earth and as Pastor Brad indicated, we will all sin and fall short of why we are here. We have to worry about physical death and spiritual death because of Adam’s transgression. However, we know that “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Through Jesus death lost its sting and victory. All mankind will be resurrected which is to say that our body and spirit will be reunited at the appropriate time.
In Matthew 5:25, 28-29, Christ says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
So we see that those who have done good will be resurrected with Jesus and those who have done evil will be resurrected to damnation. You might want to read in the book of Alma in the Book of Mormon chapters 40-42 for further light and knowledge regarding this subject. In my opinion, it is the most comprehensive explanation found in scripture.
Mr. Rex, you don’t understand how the New Testament was assembled if you think that it is the only word of God. You also don’t understand the gospel of Jesus Christ as He taught it on this earth. Your answers to my questions are false and too numerous to reply to. It wouldn’t do any good as you wrest the scriptures to your own destruction. Jesus said that the elect will hear his voice. He said that He is the way to salvation and no other way. He said if you love him, keep His commandments. That is action, not some act of simply saying ‘I’m a believer’. You ignore or dismiss all of the teachings in the Bible about being judged according to your works. You want to proclaim that the way to heaven is easy and simple. Did you get baptized? If so why? All you needed to do was proclaim a belief in Christ, right?
John 17 shows perfectly that Christ was praying to someone else, His Father in Heaven, God. He was not praying to Himself and your inability to distinguish the difference of the two is incredible. After Jesus was resurrected, didn’t He show Himself to many people? The Bible sure says he does. He also ate with His disciples and people handled Him. How does one do this without having a body of flesh and bones? How is more than 1 person in that body? Wasn’t it Mary who wanted to touch Christ after His resurrection, but he told her not to because he hadn’t ascended to His Father yet?
You proclaim the Bible to be the sole and only word of God. Yet you don’t even obey what is written in it! Isaiah is not talking about Acts! How do you come up with a ridiculous conclusion like that? When the Book of Mormon was being translated, the experience written about by Isaiah happened. A learned man said those words regarding the translation of the characters. Is that what happened regarding the Book of Acts? Please tell me where this happened? You can’t because it didn’t.
You sarcastically ask when it was that my family heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. Well my friend, after Christ died and organized the preaching of the gospel in the Spirit World, (See Doctrine and Covenants, Section 138 for a full accounting of this doctrine) all mankind, from the beginning of time to the person who had just died, was taught the gospel. It was taught by all the prophets of old and other righteous men who lived on this earth. And you Mr. Rex Ray, will be taught the true gospel of Jesus Christ within a year after you die on this earth. Unless of course, you would like to claim those blessings while you are still here. If you do, just seek out the local missionaries and they will be happy to enlighten and explain the gospel to you.
You claim that who do not profess a belief in Christ will go to hell immediately after they die. Well, that’s a wonderful and merciful Christ you believe in. You believe that He will send all those people who live in the jungles of nowhere and the beaches of the smallest kind who have never, nor ever will have missionaries attend to them will be thrust down to hell because of where they were born. How incredulous!
Again, this shows your ignorance to the laws of justice and mercy of our Lord. You also don’t understand that Christ died for ALL mankind, not just the lucky few who are born in the right places. How daring of you to dismiss the atonement of Jesus Christ to but a small few who follow your narrow and misguided teachings. What arrogance and condescension you show.
Christ organized His church while he was here on earth. Your church does not resemble the church that He organized. It doesn’t even come close. You have no prophet, nor apostles. You don’t believe in revelation. You have no priesthood authority, because no one can take the priesthood upon himself and it isn’t for sale; says so in your Bible. Christ called His twelve apostles and when Judah was dismissed they selected another righteous man to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. That is written in your book of Acts, Mr. Ray. Do you believe how that was done? No man took that honor upon himself?
You even make up rules and regulations about the authenticity of baptism. Where do you obtain your authority? Not from Christ who is the head of the church from man who started your church.
Who started your church? How was it started? Why was it started?
Interesting fact for you to ponder: The Catholic Church believes it has the authority all the way back to Peter. Yet the Pope is not a prophet and does not claim to receive revelation like all the prophets of old. He merely interprets that which is already written.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was restored by a prophet of God, Joseph Smith. Jesus said this Himself. He was given the Aaronic Priesthood by John the Baptist and the Melchizedek Priesthood by Peter, James and John. Thus he had the authority to restore the true church of Jesus Christ. The Bible you profess to read and believe in talks about a falling away and a restoration. Not a reformation, but a restoration.
So to all of you, either the true church of Christ is the Catholic Church or the LDS Church. No other church will do as they were all started by men for various reasons and teach false doctrines. Claiming any other authority is purely false and will not due. It is all explained in your Bible but you are unwilling to listen to the truth because you are blinded by the craftiness of men. The gospel of Jesus Christ is one of action, not words. What did Christ do all His life? Went about doing that which was good.
He says, if you love me, then you will keep my commandments. That is action. If a professed belief is all it takes, then the commandments and sin have no meaning to you for you can do no wrong since you have professed your belief in Christ. Repentance is something for someone else, not you because your actions have no consequences. The atonement wrought with drops of blood by our Savior has no meaning to you as the sins He paid for are something with which you are not a believer. Sinning means you did something wrong and since you have professed your belief in Christ, you can’t do anything wrong. If you think you can sin, then your whole belief that all one has to do is profess Christ’s name and one will be saved is false! You can’t have it both ways.
If you would like to hear the true gospel of Jesus Christ in this lifetime, please call your local LDS church and ask for the missionaries. Read the Book of Mormon. Pray about it. The Book of Mormon makes clear the misunderstood teachings of the Bible because it is the word of God unadulterated by men throughout the years.
Ephesians 4:5 says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” If that is true then I ask you, why so many churches who profess their belief in the one and only infallible Bible? Why so many other doctrines of men being taught? Why? The Bible is the ONLY word of God, right? All encompassing? Nothing more needs to be said?
I’m sorry, but the Jesus Christ I know and love and worship doesn’t work the way you preach. I don’t even recognize the Christ you profess a belief in.
Where do we go when we die? Asked and answered. Now it is up to you if you want to believe the truth or go on in darkness.
March 5, 2007
David Rogers,
Thanks for the sincere reply.
I think you would agree that God does not inspire untruth. What man does in the Bible is his own free will given by God. God let Moses “hit” the rock knowing Moses was not giving honor to him. Moses did not have the faith to obey God to speak to the rock for water. He and his brother decided that Moses should hit the rock since that had worked before. For that reason they were not allowed to go into the promise land. (Numbers)
When Moses wrote, “The Lord was angry with me also because of you and said: ‘You will not enter there either.’” (Deuteronomy 1:37)
“But the Lord was angry with me on account of you…” (Deuteronomy 3:26)
“The Lord was angry with me on your account. He swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.” (Deuteronomy 4:21)
The question is: Were the words of Moses ‘inspired’ in Deuteronomy when Moses did not admit his sin but put all the blame on the people? In other words, it’s true that Moses spoke his words, but his words were not true. Thus, Scripture is true even if some words are not true in the Bible.
David, you know all the while I’m writing Moses, I’m thinking James did the same thing. It goes back to what James DID in Acts 15. What he did in essence was to contradict salvation as a gift because of tradition and him being so popular, his “decision” (as judge?) was accepted over Peter’s.
So, when reading the book of James, I see him still backing up his decision which I believe was false, therefore some of his writing was not inspired because they are not true just like some words of Moses.
I won’t expect a reply, but someday when you have more time, you might dwell more in depth. I struggled ten years with this before I started writing.
Rex Ray
March 6, 2007
To Scott the Mormon,
You say, “Lucifer wanted to change God’s plan and force everyone to God’s will, with no chance to choose for ourselves and then he wanted God’s glory in return. God rejected Lucifer and chose our Savior Jesus Christ to execute the plan. Unfortunately, over 1/3 of the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer and were cast out. They will never receive a body, ever.”
BTW, do you see how easy that was—copy paste? See, I have quoted you correctly. Right? Why is it you never quote me by copy—paste. You summarize falsely my words so that anyone reading your comments has no truth of what I’ve written but must rely on what you’ve said.
Also why did you not comment where we had a conversation going? I looked for a reply but never saw one. On March 5, I even asked on Wade Burleson’s blog if anyone knew what happened to you.
With that said, I’ll get back to your quote. I’ve never heard the ‘theory’ (That’s all that anyone knows for sure why the devil rebelled against God.) that the devil wanted to make man like a robot. I can’t say that he didn’t because the Bible doesn’t say. Is this your idea, or do you get it from the Book of Mormon?
The only thing the Bible says that MIGHT lead to my believe that the devil was jealous of man being made ‘higher’ than him that caused his rebellion is Ephesians 2:6 “He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus.” Scott, you might help me out here; I was looking for the Scripture that says man will be raised up and made higher than the angels.
Anyway, the devil says to God (speculation) “No Lord; not higher than me.” So that’s why the devil hates man so much because God was going to make man higher than him.
On January 9, 2007, you made this comment on Brad Reynolds blog: “Christ went to the Spirit World to organize the spirits that were already there. He met with the prophets of old; Adam, Moses, Noah, Abraham, etc. to teach them concerning this phase of their lives and to organize them. The work that they were commanded to do is ongoing. It is their responsibility to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ to those spirits WHO HAVE NOT HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR HIS GOSPEL.”
Now you say, “And you Mr. Rex Ray, will be taught the true gospel of Jesus Christ within a year after you die on this earth”
Your last statement contradicts your first statement because I’ve heard the Gospel. Or do you mean ‘THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SMITH?’
You asked, “Who started your church? How was it started? Why was it started?”
Scott, if you read the ‘Trail of Blood’ by J.M. Carroll, you will find the answers to your questions. (Just type those words in on the internet and you will have his article.) Our forefathers were named “Anabaptist” 52 years BEFORE Catholics got their name in 313 A.D.
You say, “John 17 shows perfectly that Christ was praying to someone else, His Father in Heaven, God. He was not praying to Himself and your inability to distinguish the difference of the two is incredible.”
What is “incredible” is you inability to UNDERSTAND English. I did not say Jesus was praying to himself and I’ll copy-paste my reply to your question of: “Who is Jesus praying to in John 17? (Please don’t tell me he is praying to himself.)”
My reply: “In the Living Bible, Jesus said “Father” 6 times, and “you” or “yours” (referring to God), 49 times. HE WAS PRAYING TO GOD. What is the point of your question? How can you defend your question as NOT being an ignorant question?”
Scott, if you’ll admit that you’re wrong about my “inability to distinguish the difference” about Jesus praying to God or to himself, I will continue to answer your questions. If not, I have nothing further to say because the Bible teaches not to argue with a fool.
Rex Ray
Rex,
Let's not call names. By the way, I neglected to ask how your brother was doing. I hope well.
I did comment where we had the conversation going but the pastor decided he didn't want my comments on his post. He must know that my words are true and he doesn't want anyone else to see them.
You did say that Jesus was praying to God. However, my understanding is that you believe Jesus and God to be the same person. Do I have that correct? We know that they are separate beings, just like you and I.
Knowing why Lucifer did what he did is not a theory. It is in scripture. I won't quote it but if you want me to give you the reference for your review, I will be happy to.
You call it the gospel according to Smith. It's the gospel that was revealed to the PROPHET Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ himself. Why does that make you afraid?
I will look up your reference about your church and get back to you with any questions. However, are you claiming you have authority from Jesus or the prophets of old? Are you claiming you have the priesthood of God? Do you have a prophet and the 12 apostles like Jesus ordained when He established His church? Do you claim to receive revelation? If you answer no, then your church does not look anything like the church that Jesus established. Why not?
Finally, yes, you will be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is no question about it and you will recall some of the things that I have share with you.
I can't do it justice in a forum like this because the Holy Ghost needs to be present for someone to gain their witness of the truthfulness of Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Rex, you can claim all you want that the Bible is the only word of God. However, the Bible teaches differently and so do the scriptures that have come forth in the restored church.
Peace to you my brother.
Scott
March 7, 2007
Scott,
Nice of you to ask about my brother. He is doing a lot lot better now that he is able to eat and gain back some of the 40# he lost when he didn’t need to lose any. (Got his ulcer fixed.) He is getting some strength back from the Valley Fever.
You said, “Since the pastor doesn’t seem to want to post my last comment to you and Volfan…He must know that my words are true and he doesn’t want anyone else to see them.”
You may have noticed by now that Brad Reynolds has stopped blogging period. He has started some ‘new’ work but hasn’t told us what it is.
At one time I can see how you might think your conclusions were right, but now, do you see how false your conclusions were about why he hasn’t printed your comment?
Will you admit you were wrong about your conclusions? (This is a test: if you will not admit you’re wrong, then you do not have an open mind, so it would be futile for our conversation to continue. There are some Baptist this way about the way they believe in inerrancy of the Bible.)
You said, “My understanding is that you believe Jesus and God to be the same person.”
No, there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. All three are separate with different priorities, functions, responsibilities, abilities, etc, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit are to bring glory to God.
After Jesus was resurrected, he did not have the ability to be everywhere at once. That’s one reason He said it was expedient for him to go away, and the Holy Spirit would come since He has the ability to be everywhere at the same time and can speak and “draw” everyone to Jesus (and thus to God [“No one may come to the Father except by me.”] )
Scott, the bottom line is, I don’t know how/why God designed everything—I just know by faith and experience it works.
Yes, I’d like for you to tell me the Scripture that says why Lucifer rebelled against God because Lucifer wanted God to make man as a robot or words to that effect.
You say, “It’s the gospel that was revealed to the PROPHET Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ himself. Why does that make you afraid?”
The only thing I’m afraid of is that your faith is based on untruth and therefore your faith would be false faith which is really no faith at all.
Real faith is given by God and can never be “dead” as James says, because God doesn’t give anything that is junk. James should have said, “Belief without works is dead” because the definition of faith is belief in action which produces works which is motivated by love for Jesus to obey his commands, and not because it’s a law of legalism.
Your saying, “It’s the gospel that was revealed to the PROPHET Joseph Smith” is the whole foundation of Mormonism. Is that right?
It goes back to the imagination of a “Book” referred to in Isaiah as referring to the Book of Mormon.
I have already discussed this with you as I said, “The “book” is a metaphor that contains the future events of their destruction.” The “book” did not have a double meaning that referred to a book written by Smith.
I agree with you that Isaiah was not talking about Acts. I was just making fun that Isaiah was talking about the book of Mormon and said it was talking about my article (Truth of Acts); I was just making fun of the absurd conclusion it was referring to any book in the future.
I’m sorry you did not understand my sarcasm. I will not use sarcasm in the future.
Our church or the Church of Christ has only one prophet which is Jesus. It needs no apostles because it has Jesus. It needs no one to reveal Scripture to us other than the Holy Spirit. Our priesthood comes from Calvary; shown by God splitting the curtain that separated man from God.
No longer did man need a ‘go-between’ him and God, as our priesthood through Jesus gives us direct contact with God himself because we have become he children.
Scott, my desire is that you don’t have to be Baptists; you can stay a Mormon as long as you have had a personal relationship with Jesus.
Has the Holy Spirit convinced you at one time in your life that you were lost without Jesus; that you were doomed to hell unless you asked Jesus to save you?
If he has and you heeded his calling and asked Jesus to save you, then we will someday meet in heaven.
Rex Ray
Rex,
Good to hear about your brother. And no, I hadn't noticed that he wasn't posting any longer because I just kept referencing the one post that we had been commenting on.
You sure like to use phrases like, "Will you admit you were wrong about your conclusions? (This is a test: if you will not admit you’re wrong, then you do not have an open mind, so it would be futile for our conversation to continue."
As you can see, I copied and pasted your comments so you could see them directly. Don't want to paraphrase, right?
Does it offend you that I didn't notice the pastor had quit blogging and I came to a wrong conclusion because I didn't read his other posts?
Will you admit that your comments posted here below were incorrect? This is a test. If not, I can't continue because you will not have an open mind and it's hard to converse with a closed one.
Your comments to SelahV...
Thanks for helping to “teach” a Mormon truth on another blog. He seems to have withdrawn.
Rex Ray
Rex, I'm not sure what to make of your comments. I can't get you to answer any of mine directly. You do expound a lot in your comments but I don't see answers so I don't know how to continue. I probably do the same to you.
Yes or no, Is Jesus the Only Begotten Son of God the Father?
Yes or no, Are Jesus and God 2 different people just like you and I are 2 different people?
Yes or no, do God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine?
I'll address your other comments about priesthood and the need for apostles and prophets soon.
The reference for you to read is Moses chapter 4 of The Pearl of Great Price. You should actually read all of the Book of Moses, but pay close attention to chapter 4.
Here is a link for your convenience.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4
Scott
ps, sarcasm is great when it is detectable... :)
March 9, 2007
I like the way you asked questions this time, (yes or no—when possible) so I’ll do the same.
I have a suggestion that we both follow:
1. Write the date on our comments as the blog only puts the time.
2. Number our questions.
3. Keep our questions to a minimum. (We both seem if we reply to a few questions but ignore the ones we don’t want to answer.)
4. And keep on using ‘copy-paste.’
BTW, I copy your comment, paste it in my ‘word document’ under “Scott the Mormon says’, print your comment, make notes on the paper, then answer your comment under your pasted comment. That way, I can copy-paste from your comment to my reply, and it’s easy not to forget what you have asked or what I want to reply to.
For today I’ve numbered your questions 1 through 5.
1. “Does it offend you that I didn't notice the pastor had quit blogging and I came to a wrong conclusion because I didn't read his other posts?”
It’s less offensive to know you wrote without knowing the truth, but I don’t like untruth period.
2. Will you admit that your comments posted here below were incorrect?
Your comments to SelahV...Thanks for helping to “teach” a Mormon truth on another blog. He seems to have withdrawn.
Rex Ray
Yes, I was wrong in my conclusion that you had withdrawn because I didn’t know you had written on my blog. (It’s so seldom that anyone comments on it, I hardly ever check it.) But I was right in my thinking that she had helped to teach a Mormon truth.
3. “Is Jesus the Only Begotten Son of God the Father?”
Yes, but I have a problem with “Begotten” because it means only, and why would it be correct to say, ‘Jesus is the only only Son…’
4. “Are Jesus and God 2 different people just like you and I are 2 different people?
I would say yes in the context that they are two and are different. And I believe you will agree that they are NOT “like you and I are 2 different people” because you and I don’t have a relationship as they do. (I’m not trying to ‘twist’ your words; just want to make sure we agree on that.)
5. “Do God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bones as tangible as your and mine?
Yes, but again they are not like our bodies, and neither will our bodies in heaven be like our bodies on earth.
You said on another comment: “Knowing why Lucifer did what he did is not a theory. It is in scripture. [SCRIPTURE] I won't quote it but if you want me to give you the reference for your review, I will be happy to.”
I replied: “Yes, I’d like for you to tell me the Scripture that says why Lucifer rebelled against God because Lucifer wanted God to make man as a robot or words to that effect.”
You wrote: “The reference for you to read is Moses chapter 4 of The Pearl of Great Price. You should actually read all of the Book of Moses, but pay close attention to chapter 4. Here is a link for your convenience. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4”
I’m disappointed that you did not give me any Scripture like you said you would about Lucifer etc. You gave me some stuff from the book of Mormon.
Hmmmm…lets see now (sarcasm) if I want to write something that sounds authentic like the King James Bible, I’d use spake, unto, thou, hast, Begotten, thy, wherefore, and thine as written in what you wanted me to read from “Moses Chapter 4:
And I, the aLord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That bSatan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the cbeginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will dredeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI will do it; wherefore fgive me thine honor…”
Scott, Smith sure got his wires cross up when he wrote this because it contradicts the Bible. He has man needing to be redeemed before Satan was thrown from heaven.
I think if you and I put our heads together, we could write something better and more believable than what Smith wrote, but it would not be inspired from God would it? (Question 1)
Haven’t had much time to write. In 20 minutes, my twin will be 75.
Rex Ray
Rex,
Just a quick one to point out. I'll respond to some other things later.
You said,
3. “Is Jesus the Only Begotten Son of God the Father?”
Yes, but I have a problem with “Begotten” because it means only, and why would it be correct to say, ‘Jesus is the only only Son…’
Actually Begotten is the paste tense of beget, meaning to father or sire. Not sure where you get your understanding that it means 'only'.
So the phrase Only Begotten Son means that Jesus is the only person God fathered for this earth life. We are all spiritual offspring of God.
Scott - Monday 11:47 AM
Thursday March 14, 2007
Scott,
Our internet went down Saturday and stayed off till Today. Sunday, at church, my wife passed out, and she was in the hospital until yesterday. She is ok.
You said, “So the phrase Only Begotten Son means that Jesus is the only person God fathered for this earth life. We are all spiritual offspring of God.”
I don’t want to split hairs, but you used “only” to explain what “Begotten” means. So I still say only one “only” is necessary.
You said “fathered for this earth life.”
1. Do you NOT believe Jesus was transformed from heaven to earth? Are you saying Jesus didn’t exist until God fathered him in Mary?
I don’t think you mean that, but just wanted to make sure.
I agree that we are spiritual offspring of God, but only after we accept Jesus as our savior.
2. Have you accepted Jesus as your savior?
Rex Ray
Rex,
Glad to here that your wife is doing well. My grandma (103) is still living on her own and sharp as a tack. I don't think I want to try to surpass her age :)
You said,
Scott, Smith sure got his wires cross up when he wrote this because it contradicts the Bible. He has man needing to be redeemed before Satan was thrown from heaven.
I think if you and I put our heads together, we could write something better and more believable than what Smith wrote, but it would not be inspired from God would it? (Question 1)
Joseph Smith's writings are accurate and vitally important to the understanding of our existence here on earth. Why? Because they came from the Lord himself. Since they came from Jesus, how can they be wrong? They aren't and there is no sense debating that for me. But please try to write something even remotely close to the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. Many tried back in the 1830's and were made to look foolish. I don't suppose to be smarter than Christ who made this earth and who knows all.
Actually, Satan was cast out of heaven with another third of the hosts of heaven for disobedience. Yes this occurred before we came to this earth. Did you know that we all used to live with each other in the preexistence? We did. All found in the Bible.
That's why we are spiritual offspring from our Heavenly Father. Jesus and Satan are our brothers. Mary is the mother of Jesus and God is His father. There is no prerequisite to believe in Christ in order to be spiritual offspring of God. We were His offspring before the world was.
Christ is my Savior and King. He is my Redeemer and the only one who could provide a way for me to be resurrected and with the ability to return and live with Him and Heavenly Father again.
Have you read Revelations 12 yet? If not you should. It talks about the war in heaven and how Satan was defeated and cast out. I take it you don't like the reading of Moses chapter 4. For someone who professes to want to know the truth, you should love it. Why? Look at the simplicity of the writings and how they open up the windows of heaven on something so vital to our existence. The writings are true. They are scripture.
You can continue to deny that there are other scriptures than the Bible, but you do so to your own detriment. In fact there are many references in the Bible about other writings that the Apostles wrote yet they aren't in the Bible. Why not?
You should read the book Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman. I'm sure you can pick it up at your local library.
Rex, the Bible is NOT a book that was written from cover to cover. It does not even include all of the writings of the time period. For one to believe that the Bible is all inclusive they truly don't understand the Bible and its teachings and refuse to open their eyes to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
1. Do you believe in revelation?
2. Do you believe that the Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc. spoke with God and received revelation?
3. Isn't prophecy and revelation components of the true church?
4. The Bible says they are so why do people who believe in the Bible say that the times for revelation, prophets and prophecy are times of the past?
Scott
Friday March 16th.
Sunday night, March 18, 2007
Scott,
Went to Arkansas Friday for a wedding and got back today. Anyone as old as your grandmother could probably teach you and me a lot. I’ve forgotten or haven’t heard how old you are? (Question #1)
But first to answer your questions’
1. “Do you believe in revelation?”
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us. I don’t know what that all entails. Jesus could have told his disciples that the world was round, but that wasn’t important compared to him wanting them to know he was the Son of God. Someone said our purpose on earth was to know God better so we could enjoy him more in heaven.
2. “Do you believe that Moses, Abraham, Noah. etc spoke with God and received revelation”
They spoke with God, and received instructions. I don’t see where you keep coming up with this word ‘revelation.’
3. “Isn’t prophecy and revelation components of the true church?”
Prophecy is a gift given to individuals. It was not a requirement for a church. A church is nothing more than believers in Christ. The same with revelation.
4. “The Bible says they are; so why do people who believe in the Bible say that the times for revelation, prophets and prophecy are times of the past?”
Jesus came to fulfill the law; in doing so, He was greater than the prophets. God replaced them with his Son. Why would anyone want a prophet when they can’t save anyone from hell. “No one comes to the Father but by me.”
There is not need for further “revelation” other than the Bible. The Bible says that others will teach untruths as they have received visions, messages from God, revelations, and will deceive many with their smooth talk, clever imagination, and misguided ideas. Scott, for proof, just look in a mirror.
You say, “Mary is the mother of Jesus and God is His Father.”
The Bible says what was in Mary was the Holy Spirit. It wouldn’t surprise me if the DNA of Jesus showed Mary was not his mother, but was only the ‘carrier’ of a ‘fertilized egg’ that God had changed his Son into. (I’ve never heard that theory from anyone; does that make me a prophet? HA)
Scott, you say, “Did you know that we all used to live with each other in the preexistence? We did. All found in the Bible…there is not prerequisite to believe in Christ in order to be spiritual offspring of God.”
See, that’s a lie straight from hell. The devil has fooled you that you don’t have to ask Jesus to save you. He knows if you never ask him, he will have you in hell and you will never be raised above where he used to be in heaven.
My question # 2 (Yes or No) Have you asked Jesus to save you?
Rex Ray
Rex,
I'm not sure our conversations are productive at all. For me it's not engaging to discuss the gospel of Jesus Christ with someone who doesn't understand the teachings of the Bible.
You have twisted and distorted the Bible into teachings that Christ himself would not recognize.
The Bible is not the end all, be all. There are other scriptures that we don't even have yet. It truly is a blind man who obviously reads the Bible but fails to head the teachings of the Holy Ghost which will teach a man the truth.
There are teachings of the apostasy in the Bible. You deny that teaching. There are teachings of people who have itching ears and will hear only what they want to hear and be deceived. You are part of that group.
I've given you chapter and verse of your Bible and yet you either ignore it or come up with some other asinine rationale NOT founded in any scripture.
As I've said before, there are many references to other letters in the scriptures, yet they are not found in your Bible. Why? How can you claim anything of the sort that the Bible is full of all the teachings? Incredible ignorance on the voracity of the Bible and how it was put together. Again, go read Misquoting Jesus. Go to your library and get it. Your eyes might be opened a little bit.
Sorry, Rex, if you fail to want to learn the true gospel of Jesus Christ, I can't help you. If you fail to read the Book of Mormon and pray to our loving and all-knowing God, in the name of Christ to know if it is by the work of man or by the hand of Christ himself, then you can remain in darkness. I don't know why anyone would want to do that when all one has to do is read, ponder and pray about the Book of Mormon.
Isn't it funny how supposed "Christians" in the world are so scared by a little 500 page book? Don't you think that there were other people on the earth beside in Jerusalem? Don't you think that Jesus loves them the same as He does his own people? Wouldn't he tell them the same message?
Well, He did and His teachings can be found in the Book of Mormon. Pick it up and read it. Don't sit in ignorance and bliss at you ripe old age of 70 something. Old dogs can learn new tricks.
You asked me if I have asked Jesus to save me. Well, Rex, no where in the scriptures does it require me to ask Jesus to save me. Our definitions of saved are completely different and you refuse to open yourself up to the possibility that you are wrong.
I strive daily to obey the commandments of Christ. That is what He asked me to do so that is what I will do. You too should strive to live His commandments. As you do, you will see the need for a change inside and that the mere words of saying I believe in Christ will not save anyone. Again, read the scripture where Jesus tells those who "claimed" to prophesy in His name to leave because He didn't know them. Just saying Lord, Lord, is not going to earn you a place in the mansions in God's house. Sorry.
You dismiss the formality of a church. You do so in vain. Christ came to this earth and established His church. He called His 12 apostles, they didn't call Him. He set up His church to be run His way, not the way of man. The Christian churches of old, from within, distorted the teachings of Jesus and the apostles on purpose.
Revelation is God speaking to His prophets to tell them what to tell man. I'm not sure why that is such hard word for you to understand. See Amos 3:7. Revelation occurred on Mt. Sinai. Revelation occurred when some guy built an ark when it wasn't even raining.
Rex, it's sad to see someone profess so much love for Christ, yet understand so little about Him. Call the local LDS church and ask for the missionaries. They might be able to help you. Here is the address for the local church.
1540 Hwy 78 South
BONHAM , TX 75418
903-583-4221 (Office) Call on Sunday. Church starts at 10am. You should take a stroll and go to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Christ's Church. The only true church on the whole planet. Guided through revelation to a prophet, just like Moses, Noah and Abraham. Just like Peter.
We also have 12 apostles just like Christ did when He established His church. Only 1 road leads back to God and those who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not on that road. Sorry, strong but true. Not my words, but Christ's own words. I don't have to defend what He said. I just have to relay them.
You will remember these things after you die. Why? Because you will be sitting across from 2 missionaries who will be teaching you the true gospel of Jesus Christ and I'm sure they will be using the Book of Mormon AND the Bible.
Here is a quote from you.
(Scott, you say, “Did you know that we all used to live with each other in the preexistence? We did. All found in the Bible…there is not prerequisite to believe in Christ in order to be spiritual offspring of God.”
See, that’s a lie straight from hell. The devil has fooled you that you don’t have to ask Jesus to save you. He knows if you never ask him, he will have you in hell and you will never be raised above where he used to be in heaven.)
Your opinion that my comments are a lie. You have no scripture to back it up and I all I have done is quote scripture. I'm not fooled by anyone, including you. You and SelahV have not taught me any truth.
Your comments and interpretations of the Bible will only lead you down to hell. Unless, you actually post something that is beneficial, then I think I'm done with this conversation. It is boring to converse with someone who really doesn't know what they are talking about.
Hope your wife and brother continue to recover.
Remember my name Rex cause I'll see you in the Spirit World, which is were we go when we die to await the Millennium and then final judgment. Again, this can be found in Revelations 20. I don't know why I list any references for you because you don't read them to understand the teachings of truth.
I could go on and on, but I'm starting to bore myself. Good luck to you Rex and may you decide to open your eyes in this life to see and hear the true word of Christ.
March 20, 2007
Scott,
Say, you write a pretty good argument. The main thing wrong is that you have “Rex” instead of ‘Scott.’
To apply what you write, no one was ‘saved’ (including the Apostles) until Smith REVEALED how to do it.
Think about it…the idea is crazy.
So, you’ve never asked Jesus to save you…that’s more than sad.
Wouldn’t it be smart to do both ‘ways of thinking’ just in case one was wrong? That would be called a ‘back up plan.’
It is SO EASY to ask Jesus to save you. That’s what is so unappealing to man because with man’s ego, he wants to accomplish things on his own without help from anyone…including God.
There is only one catch in asking Jesus to save you…you have to mean it.
Rex Ray
Rex,
You said, "To apply what you write, no one was ‘saved’ (including the Apostles) until Smith REVEALED how to do it.
Think about it…the idea is crazy."
Perfect example of not understanding what I said or mean. You need the missionaries to come teach the gospel to you desperately. You are in dire need of help.
I don't need a back up plan, do you? What if I'm right and you are wrong. Then what are YOU going to do. Again, you show no scripture reference for your teachings. It is because you can't because they are the teachings of men. I can teach everything I know with the Bible, but through the understanding of the teachings of the Book of Mormon.
Read it. What if I'm right? Then you my friend, are left out in the cold and when we meet in the Spirit World, you are going to say, "Why didn't you try harder to get me to go to your church and read the Book of Mormon." And I'll say, " I tried but you refused to even give it the possibility because of your pride and arrogance on your own thinking."
So sorry to see someone be so thickheaded.
Scott
ps, I don't make it on my own. Again, you twist my words into your own twisted meaning of the scriptures.
March 20, 2007
Scott,
Rev. 20 says the oceans will give up their dead to see if their names are written in the Book of Life. I guess if you want to miss the ‘spirit world’, be sure you’re buried in the ocean.
When I grew up, so many people argued Revelations, that’s all they wanted to talk about. What I don’t know about the Bible doesn’t bother me; it’s what I do know that bothers me. 800 years passed before the church of Antioch added Revelations to their Bible, so I guess the Gospel can save without that Book.
Scott, can the Book of Mormon exist without Revelations?
Rex
I meant Revelation.
(The Book of Revelation.)
Rex,
Maybe you should actually read all of Chapter 20. Since you obviously only read one verse, I'll include the whole chapter for your reading.
Please pay attention to verse 5 where is says that not everyone will be resurrected at the same time. Debunks your theory that man will be judged immediately and assigned to heaven or hell right when we die.
Verses 7-10 talk about the state you will be in if you continue in your current path. Sorry to be the one to point that out to you.
Verses 11-15 talk about the final judgment. You can focus on the verse that talks about those in the sea, which are actually pretty significant figures considering the flood that encompassed the earth and the way the earth changed with the death of Christ. You know, mountains became valleys and valley became mountains and their were floods on the earth again. You know, all that hard to understand stuff written in your Bible, but so simply written that a man of your intelligence can't understand it.
Your question about the Book of Mormon existing without the Book of Revelation is meaningless to those who understand the scriptures. It's a matter of both being the scriptures of Christ and being used together to understand the gospel of Jesus. Just like it says in Ezekiel about the stick of Judah (Bible) and the stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon) coming together. So simple to see and understand by those who want to know the truth.
So here is the full text of Revelation 20. Please read it. Again, you have no scriptures to back up your claims of only proclaiming a belief in Christ and 'asking' Him to save you and you are in heaven. If what you say is true, then again I ask you what good are commandments to you? What good is going to church? What good is reading your Bible? You are already saved, right? You don't have to do anything else in this life but pay taxes and die.
Don't try to tell me about being a good person or anything like that because those actions are meaningless in your world. They have no outcome on your salvation. The good Rex Ray is saved by saying a few simple words. Pathetic understanding of the scriptures and you and all who believe such will someday understand and know differently. Not trying to be arrogant, but just lay out the facts for you.
Again, call the missionaries. Go to the church this Sunday at 10am. Actually read the Book of Mormon. I'm sure you haven't read it yet. You have just taken some preachers word about it. You don't want to know the truth. Rex, what if I'm right? What if the Book of Mormon is true? What if the only true church on the planet is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
What if.... you will never know because you are too stubborn and too intellectual to believe in modern day revelation, you know, the stuff contained in your Bible. Revelation from Christ to His prophets!
THE REVELATION
OF ST JOHN THE DIVINE
CHAPTER 20
Satan is bound during the Millennium—The saints shall then live and reign with Christ—The dead stand before God and are judged out of the books according to their works.
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
March 24, 2007
Scott,
My friend…in the sense I’m consider myself the better for meeting you by causing me to study the Bible more.
A true friend makes you a better person while a false friend will lead you away from God.
(Maybe you can see what I’m not doing too good of a job in trying to say.)
What makes you think I didn’t read all of Chapter 20 of Revelation? Do you think I’d pick out something that would in a small way prove your point? No. I picked out something that disproved your point. (The oceans will give up their dead.) Isn’t that what debating is all about?
Your write from King James, “THE REVELATION OF ST JOHN THE DIVINE CHAPTER 20.”
Have you ever wondered why other translations have “REVELATION” period? Getting off the subject some…who wrote “ST JOHN THE DIVINE”…man or God?
Do you agree the same person that wrote Revelation also wrote III John which is identified as the Elder? Also these books were written in the 90’s while the Apostle John, according to Jesus would be martyred, and history records him being boiled alive in the 70’s.
(Tradition has the boiling did not kill him.) Also history records there was a John the Elder who was know by ‘Elder’. He had his own traditions.
You write; “Just like it says in Ezekiel about the stick of Judah (Bible) and the stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon) coming together. So simple to see and understand by those who want to know the truth.”
Subtitle in Ezekiel Chapter 37: “Reunion of Israel and Judah” (man’s words)
God’s Words:
Verse 15 Again a message came to me from the Lord:
Verse 16 Son of man, take a stick and carve on it these words: “This stick represents Judah and its allied tribes.” Then take another stick and carve these words on it: “This stick represents the northern tribes of Israel.”
Verse 17 Now hold them together in your hand as one stick.
Verse 18 When your people ask you what your actions mean,
Verse 19 say to them, “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the northern tribes and join them to Judah. I will make them one stick in my hand.
Verse 20 Then hold out the sticks you have inscribed, so the people can see them.
Verse 21 And give them this message from the Sovereign Lord. I will gather the people of Israel from the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places they have been scattered.
Verse 22 I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations.
This is an example of the Book of Mormon being written, and then going through the Bible and picking a verse here and there out of context in TRYING to prove Smith’s writings came from God. For anyone, intelligent or dumb, to believe these sticks represented the Bible and the Book of Mormon would have to be more than drunk.
Scott, every Christian should obey Jesus, not to get something, but because they love him. Did you obey your parents only to get something or because you respected and loved them?
Rex Ray
Rex,
Your conspiracy theories regarding the writing of the Book of Mormon make me laugh. In all my days, I've never heard someone come up with as many excuses as you for Joseph Smith. Do you have a book of them somewhere that you reference?
You obviously don't know anything about the circumstances in which the plates were translated. No one has time to go fishing through the Bible to try to come up with theories to try to prove the Book of Mormon. I've already told you Rex, Christ himself has told the world that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the only true and living church on the face of the earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know that is true but Christ himself declared it.
Don't you want to know the word of Christ? Don't you want to follow His word?
You can continue to claim that the Bible is the only word of Christ, but that is a foolish claim and only believed by those who don't want to know the truth and those who want to remain in darkness. The Bible makes no such claim. It is man who has tried to make that claim and state it because of false priests and teachers.
Rex, you belong to a false church. Your priest doesn't teach total truth because he doesn't have it all.
Did you go to your local LDS Church last week?
Did you call the missionaries?
Do you get BYUTV on your satellite or cable station? If you do, you can watch General Conference this weekend, Saturday and Sunday 10am and 2 pm Mountain Time. There you will see and hear the prophet of God and His 12 Apostles, just like Christ established on this earth. you will hear the word of God. Do you not want to know what God wants you to know today?
Have you actually read the Book of Mormon?
You never answered my question about what if I'm right. Then what for Rex Ray, guardian of the false teachings of man from the Bible to fit his own views.
Christ said if ye love me then keep my commandments. That's why I try to keep them Rex.
Rex, since you have already been saved and don't have to do anything else in this life, why do you keep the commandments?
Repentance means nothing to you since you can do no wrong, right?
You are saved? You can do anything you want and you say you will live with Christ again.
Your Bible does not teach this so you must believe in the teachings of man.
How could someone read the Bible so often not understand the teachings in it?
You never answered my questions about the missing letters that are referred to in the Bible but are not included in it. Why would the writers refer to them if they carried not teachings? Why were they excluded?
Rex, you have put your trust in man and that is foolish.
I think I need to send you a Book of Mormon so you can better understand your Bible. Care to take me up on it?
Rex,
Here is an excellent article for you to read regarding your saved by grace philosophy. I've linked to it if you want to read more.
Also, you should be getting a DVD soon. I hope you actually watch it as I'm sure you will have questions for me.
http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Are_We_Saved_by_Grace_Alone.html
Ask the Apologist
Q. What is the LDS view on grace, works and salvation? If LDS really believe that salvation requires works, how can one explain verses in the Bible that state that salvation only comes by grace and not by works? How can one explain Moroni 10:32? Many claim that this is wrong as the grace of Christ is sufficient for us and we can not do anything to merit salvation ourselves, etc.
A. (by Michael W. Fordham) Your question is based upon the traditional Christian doctrine of "faith alone" being all that is necessary for salvation. Those who follow this false doctrine would critize Latter-day Saints for believing in doing good works. However, we do not believe that we "work" our way into heaven. In other words, Latter-Day Saints do not believe that our works save us. This misconception is based on the emphasis LDS people place on doing good works, and the traditional idea that faith alone will save you. But "faith alone" is not Biblical doctrine. In fact, even though fundamentalist Christians insist that works have nothing to do with salvation, the Bible says otherwise. Many Christians equate faith and belief as the same thing. There are many scriptures that inform us that if we believe, that we will be saved. But is belief the same thing as faith? Is there more to being saved than to believe (have faith) in Jesus Christ?
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
The devils believe in Christ. In fact, they do more than believe, they know Christ and the apostles.
Acts 19:15
And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
Since devils not only believe in Christ, but in fact know Him, we must ask if the devils are saved, because if they are not, then belief will not save us.
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Obviously, just because someone claims to believe in Christ does not mean they will be saved. So what else needs to be done to be saved?
* BAPTISM
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (emphasis added).
* KNOWLEDGE
Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins (emphasis added).
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews (emphasis added).
* PRAYER
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved (emphasis added).
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (emphasis added).
* CONFESS SINS
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (emphasis added).
* ENDURE
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved (emphasis added).
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (emphasis added).
There is more yet that is required for salvation other than "only" faith.
James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
What is it we are to be "doers" of?
1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth (emphasis added).
1 Timothy 6:18
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate (emphasis added).
Latter-day Saints believe in obeying the Lord, and He has specifically told us to do "good works." We should be doing the work of the Lord. Even though many Christians today claim that we are "saved by grace, without works," the Bible disagrees with them. What did Christ think of works? Did He think "works" was useless or unimportant as some think?
John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
John 10:37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Christ was our example. He taught us what we need to do by showing us, not just telling us. Christ showed us that we need not only to have faith and believe, but that we also need to be baptized, gain knowledge, pray often, confess and forsake our sins, and endure to the end. He also taught by example that we should "abound in good works." In fact, we will be judged by our works, not our faith.
Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
2 Timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
Luke 23:41
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
There are good works and evil works. Traditional believing Christians claim that works come as a result of being saved. I have always wondered how one can claim to be saved before he is even judged. According to the Bible, we will be judged accordingly to the works that we perform. Works is how we show our love, sincerity, worthiness, and faithfulness to the Lord. By works we are justified, not saved.
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (emphasis added).
Faith and works go hand in hand. It is traditional Christianity that teaches " you are saved only through faith without works." The Bible very clearly opposes this false doctrine.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
We are saved through faith, not by faith.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (emphasis added).
Faith alone is not enough. There were those in the days of Christ who made the same argument against works that today's traditional Christians do. Jesus had even asked His persecutors which work they were persecuting Him for.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate (emphasis added).
John 10:32
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
It is by grace that we are saved, not by our works. Grace comes through the atoning sacrifice that Christ made for us, and that is by which we are saved.
Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they (emphasis added).
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
I challenge anyone to produce so much as one Biblical scripture that states we are saved by faith alone, or only by faith. This is not a Biblical doctrine, but a doctrine of man as set forth by the creeds of man. In fact, the only verses which have these words used together are listed here (the words are in bold text):
Matthew 21:21
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Romans 4:9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Galatians 1:23
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
1 Thessalonians 1:8
For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Not a single one of these verses say anything that could be construed as saying that faith alone is all we need to be saved. In fact, the book of James, in its discussion on faith, asks if faith can save you.
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
In the answer to that question, there are two verses which uses the words "faith" and "only" as meaning faith alone, and they very clearly state that faith alone will not save us! They very clearly contradict the traditional Christian belief that all we need to be saved is faith alone.
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone (emphasis added).
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (emphasis added).
Latter-Day Saints agree with the Bible that there is more than faith necessary for salvation, and part of that is good works. We are justified by our works. We will be judged by our works. But in no way, shape, or form, do we claim that we can "earn" our way to heaven. Our modern day scriptures are in full agreement with the Bible.
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. (2 Nephi 10:24, emphasis added)
"By Grace We are Saved. The doctrine here stated is, salvation is freely given and cannot be "earned." We find the same thought in the Doctrine and Covenants (6:13): "There is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." And the Apostle Paul recognizes the difference between earnings and favors, when he says that the "wages of sin" is death, but the "gift" of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23) We can earn death, but we must receive life as a gift, or not at all." (George Reynolds and Janne M. Sjodahl, Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Volume 1, p. 379, edited and arranged by Philip C. Reynolds, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1955)
While Latter-day Saints do not accept the "faith alone" doctrine, we also do not accept the "saved by works" doctrine that our critics try to put upon us. The reason we do not believe that faith alone will save us, is because that principle, besides being unbiblical, would destroy the principle of repentance.
"One erroneous teaching of many Christian churches is: By faith alone we are saved. This false doctrine would relieve man from the responsibility of his acts other than to confess a belief in God, and would teach man that no matter how great the sin, a confession would bring him complete forgiveness and salvation. What the world needs is more preaching of the necessity of abstaining from sin and of living useful and righteous lives, and less preaching of forgiveness of sin. This would then be a different world. The truth is that men must repent of their sins and forsake them before they can expect forgiveness. Even when our sins are forgiven, God cannot reward us for the good we have not done." (LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Ch.4, p.24, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1976)
However, works are important and cannot be ignored. But works will not "earn" us the right to be in heaven. Since we accept the Biblical teaching of salvation, we accept the atonement of Christ.
My last post was on Wednesday March 28th. I forgot when I posted my previous post and forgot to add the date.
Scott
March 29, 2007
‘Scott the Mormon’
is the way I have the name of your file. Do you have a file on me as ‘Rex the Baptist’?
First I’d like to congratulate you on NOT being in that group of 20 or so that ‘caught the tail of a comet’ that would take them to heaven. The only catch was they had to first commit suicide. Do you remember the group that did that or were you old enough? They were so happy and told their friends that something wonderful was going to happen. Their leader had them pledge to secrecy and so they went to their death by poison, including the leader.
Scott, I would agree with you in saying they were crazy. But they were educated and had steady jobs. Where did they go wrong? They were led astray by a guy and his interpretation of Revelation. They put their trust in a man. That’s what will happen when we follow a man and not the Word of God.
But you say, we are following a prophet. This bunch thought they had a prophet also. Where does it mention Smith by name in the real Bible? Where did Christ say anything about Smith, Book of Mormon, or your church? Where?
Second. You don’t play fair. Why did you not reply about the “two sticks”? You were the one that brought it up. You asked me where I got my references about Smith. You are my reference.
The reason our church does not have a priest is because at Calvary, God split the veil that separated man from the Holy of Holies, and that signified that in receiving Christ by asking him to save us, gave us our own individual priesthood.
Scott if you are right then Jesus lied when he said I am the way, the truth, and the light, and no one could comes to the Father except by Me.
You keep asking why I keep Christ’ commandments if I’m already saved. Why don’t you read/understand my answer—so I will copy paste it. It was the last sentence I said to you in my last comment:
“Scott, every Christian should obey Jesus, not to get something, but because they love him. Did you obey your parents only to get something or because you respected and loved them?”
I will not read the Book of Mormon until you prove it came from God and not from some person like the ‘comet guy.’
Rex Ray
PS
I wrote this without knowing you had made another comment on Wednesday March 28. I haven't even read it yet.
Thursday March 29...
Rex,
I didn't know I was supposed to respond to anything about the sticks of Judah and Joseph since you didn't ask a question about them. All I can tell you is what I've said already, the stick of Judah is the Bible and the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon.
No, I don't have you in any file.
You said, "But you say, we are following a prophet. This bunch thought they had a prophet also. Where does it mention Smith by name in the real Bible? Where did Christ say anything about Smith, Book of Mormon, or your church? Where?"
I didn't know you had a sense of humor. This is one of the funniest comments I've ever heard. You are trying to say that Joseph Smith isn't a prophet because it doesn't name him in the Bible? I told you where is says about the Book of Mormon in the Bible but you refuse to believe it.
You also said, "The reason our church does not have a priest is because at Calvary, God split the veil that separated man from the Holy of Holies, and that signified that in receiving Christ by asking him to save us, gave us our own individual priesthood."
Please provide your scriptural reference for this. I know I will not see one because nothing could be further from the truth. Christ gave you your own individual priesthood. Again, please provide chapter and verse for your assumptions. God split the veil? Please provide chapter and verse.
Rex, I've never heard such lunacy regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are fulfilling the prophecies of people having itching ears and following after false teachings.
have you not read Hebrews Chapter 5 verse 4 which says that no man taketh this honour (priesthood) upon himself, but he that is called of God as was Aaron?
You can't take the priesthood upon yourself? You have to receive it by one who has the authority, just as the apostles of old. Being the defender of Acts I thought you would have known this fact since in Chapter 8 Peter tells us that the priesthood can't be bought for money. It comes through the laying on of hands by one who has the priesthood. Rex, I'm surprised at you and your faulty reading of the scriptures.
Lastly, you said, "Scott if you are right then Jesus lied when he said I am the way, the truth, and the light, and no one could comes to the Father except by Me."
If I am right about what? If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church on the planet and the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ and their are apostles and prophets on the earth today leading us back to live with Christ and God, then you are wrong Rex. What are you going to do when you find out that I'm telling the truth?
You say you won't read the Book of Mormon until I prove it is from God. I don't have to and won't. You have to read it for yourself and ask God yourself. By the power of the Holy Ghost, you will know it is true and then it will be up to you with what you do with it.
How can you criticize and castigate that which you have never read? Absolutely incredible?
Rex, God works through the Holy Ghost and until you want to know the truth of all things, you won't. You will remain in darkness and continue to write these ridiculous and scripturally unfounded comments and beliefs as if they are facts.
You have no scriptural proof of any of your comments and that is why you come up with these silly arguments and comments. Nothing you say can or will be backed up by scripture.
I don't know where you have come up with your understanding of the gospel but it is not from anyplace that has truth in it. You follow a false priest and will remain with itching ears until you actually have a desire to hear the word of God and feel His Spirit.
Listen to conference this weekend. Go to church the next weekend. Go get the Book of Mormon and pray about it. What harm would that do to you except shred your false beliefs and lead you to the truth.
Rex, you always say that the Bible tells you not to argue with a fool. Then why don't you stop arguing with yourself and do what I've suggested you do? Can't hurt that 75 year old brain unless you are too proud to want to know the truth and to actually find the gospel of Christ.
Later.
March 30, 2007
Scott,
In replying to my March 20 comment, you said at 8:16:
“Just like it says in Ezekiel about the stick of Judah (Bible) and the stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon) coming together. So simple to see and understand by those who want to know the truth.”
Then I replied on March 24:
Subtitle in Ezekiel Chapter 37: “Reunion of Israel and Judah” (man’s words)
God’s Words:
Verse 15 Again a message came to me from the Lord:
Verse 16 Son of man, take a stick and carve on it these words: “This stick represents Judah and its allied tribes.” Then take another stick and carve these words on it: “This stick represents the northern tribes of Israel.”
Verse 17 Now hold them together in your hand as one stick.
Verse 18 When your people ask you what your actions mean,
Verse 19 say to them, “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the northern tribes and join them to Judah. I will make them one stick in my hand.
Verse 20 Then hold out the sticks you have inscribed, so the people can see them.
Verse 21 And give them this message from the Sovereign Lord. I will gather the people of Israel from the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places they have been scattered.
Verse 22 I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations.
This is an example of the Book of Mormon being written, and then going through the Bible and picking a verse here and there out of context in TRYING to prove Smith’s writings came from God. For anyone, intelligent or dumb, to believe these sticks represented the Bible and the Book of Mormon would have to be more than drunk. (End on my March 24 comment.)
On March 29, you wrote:
“I didn't know I was supposed to respond to anything about the sticks of Judah and Joseph since you didn't ask a question about them. All I can tell you is what I've said already, the stick of Judah is the Bible and the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon.”
Today (March 30) I will quote one verse from several translations of Ezekiel 37:16:
1. King James: “Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.”
2. New American Standard: “…For Judah and for the sons of Israel…For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim…”
3. Holman: “…take a single stick and write on it: Belonging to Judah and the Israelites…Then take another stick and write on it: Belonging to Joseph—the stick of Ephraim—and all the house of Israel…”
4. New Living Translation (2004): “…This represents Judah and its allied tribes…This represents Ephraim and the northern tribes of Israel.”
5. New Living Translation: (1997): “…This stick represents Judah and its allied tribes…This stick represents the northern tribes of Israel.”
6. Living Bible (1979): “This stick represents Judah and her allied tribes…This stick represents all the other tribes of Israel.”
The conclusion of this prophesy from God is in Ezekiel 37: 20-22
1. King James: “And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. An say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on ever side, and bring them into their own land; And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel...”
2. New Living Translation: “Then hold out the pieces of wood you have inscribed, so the people can see them. And give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: I will gather the people of Israel from among the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places where they have been scattered. I will unify them into one nation on the mountains of Israel.”
BTW Scott, has this prophesy been fulfilled today?
Who was Joseph in the Bible? Answer: Genesis Chapter 37 through Chapter 50. The boy with the coat of many colors. The boy thrown into the pit and sold into slavery. The boy who became first in command under the Pharaoh of Egypt. The boy whose sons became the 12 tribes of Israel.
Question # 1: In verse 16, was the Scripture referring to my grandson, Joseph?
Question # 2: In verse 16, was the Scripture referring to the historical Joseph of the Bible?
Question # 3: In verse 16, was the Scripture referring to a future Book of Mormon written by Joseph Smith?
Scott, if you reply yes to question 3, then I am talking to a fool, and I will no longer engage you in conversation.
So this may be goodbye.
Rex
Rex,
You write, "BTW Scott, has this prophesy been fulfilled today?
Who was Joseph in the Bible? Answer: Genesis Chapter 37 through Chapter 50. The boy with the coat of many colors. The boy thrown into the pit and sold into slavery. The boy who became first in command under the Pharaoh of Egypt. The boy whose sons became the 12 tribes of Israel."
To answer your question, no this prophecy has not been fulfilled. It will be fulfilled before the 2nd Coming though. And it will be fulfilled by missionaries bringing the gospel of Jesus Christ to those in the Holy Land. They will be missionaries from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Good for you Rex. You know who Joseph is and whence the stick of Ephraim has come. It did come through the lineage of Ephraim by the hand of the prophets God lead out of Jerusalem before it was destroyed.
Here is the answer to your final question...
2 Nephi Chapter 3
1 And now I speak unto you, Joseph, my last-born. Thou wast born in the wilderness of mine afflictions; yea, in the days of my greatest sorrow did thy mother bear thee.
2 And may the Lord consecrate also unto thee this land, which is a most precious land, for thine inheritance and the inheritance of thy seed with thy brethren, for thy security forever, if it so be that ye shall keep the commandments of the Holy One of Israel.
3 And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed.
4 For behold, thou art the fruit of my loins; and I am a descendant of Joseph who was carried captive into Egypt. And great were the covenants of the Lord which he made unto Joseph.
5 Wherefore, Joseph truly saw our day. And he obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of his loins the Lord God would raise up a righteous branch unto the house of Israel; not the Messiah, but a branch which was to be broken off, nevertheless, to be remembered in the covenants of the Lord that the Messiah should be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the spirit of power, unto the bringing of them out of darkness unto light—yea, out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom.
6 For Joseph truly testified, saying: A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.
7 Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I braise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins. And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers.
8 And I will give unto him a commandment that he shall do none other work, save the work which I shall command him. And I will make him great in mine eyes; for he shall do my work.
9 And he shall be great like unto Moses, whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel.
10 And Moses will I raise up, to deliver thy people out of the land of Egypt.
11 But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them.
12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
THE SECOND BOOK OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 29
Many gentiles shall reject the Book of Mormon—They shall say: We need no more Bible—The Lord speaks to many nations—He will judge the world out of the books thus written. Between 559 and 545 B.C.
1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in cone. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.
Rex, reject the words of The Book of Mormon and your own peril. The saddest part about it is you have never even read it. What a shame. You have just listened to some priest somewhere teach against the LDS Church and in your ignorance you will perish. Sad.
I noticed also that you didn't answer any of my other questions with scripture references. You and I both know why. You can't because your beliefs are not found in the scriptures but presented and made up by man.
I bid you adieu Rex and hope and pray that you will run into a wall, wake from this deep sleep you are in and awake with a new sense of desire to know the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. What you know now if complete falsehoods perpetuated by the itching ears of man.
Scott "The Mormon"
March 31, 2007
Scott,
Here is one last shot (can’t let you have the last word. HA) on a new subject of priesthood.
Baptists don’t believe in a priest being over them, so our preachers are NOT priest. Preachers have one vote like everyone else when it comes to voting.
Before Christ came, only a priest could go behind the curtain or the veil of the temple that separated the Holy of Holies from the common man. God would kill anyone besides the priest that went there. They tied a rope on his leg when he went behind the curtain in case he died; they could get him out without being killed. The rope part is not found in the Bible that I know of, but I suppose the Jewish religion still carries this tradition.
Before Calvary, only the priest could make sacrifices for man’s sins, but Christ became man’s sacrifice by taking our sins upon himself and the punishment for those sins by his Father.
Each man became his own priest as recorded in John 16:23, 26-27 “…you can go directly to the Father and ask him, and he will give you what you ask for because you use my name. You shall ask in my name, and I won’t need to ask the Father to grant these requests, for the Father loves you dearly because you love me…”
What symbol did God show that revealed everyone was his own priest?
It was important enough that three Gospels recorded it. Mark 15:37-38, Luke 23:45, and Matthew 27:50-51:
“Then Jesus shouted again, and gave up His spirit. At that moment the curtain in the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.”
Now, without a priest, every man can go directly to God and have fellowship with Him with his prayers and his life by obeying His commandments NOT for salvation but because he honors his Father.
We become his children when we ask Jesus to save us; as Jesus is the Savior of the world if they would only ask with a sincere heart.
One comment you made in quoting many Scriptures about faith and salvation, was really interesting, and I could have spent a lot of time in saying what I agreed with and disagreed with, but I thought, if you could not see the two sticks were a symbol of a nation that had split and scattered in the world being brought together as one nation, then there was no hope in discussing anything with someone with a closed mind.
How crazy would it have been if the prophet had told the people, “This stick is the Bible and this stick is the Book of Mormon? The people would have said, “SO WHAT?—WHAT IS THE BOOK OF MORMON?” And the prophet would have said, “I don’t know—God didn’t tell me.”
The only prophecy the Book of Mormon fulfills is Colossians 2:8, 18:
“Don’t let others [Scott the Mormon] spoil your faith and joy with their philosophies, their wrong and shallow answers built on men’s [Smith’s] thoughts and ideas, instead of what Christ has said. Don’t let anyone [Scott the Mormon] declare you lost when you refuse to worship angels, [believe the Book of Mormon] as they say you must. They [Smith] have seen a vision, they say, and know you should. These proud men…have a very clever imagination.”
I’m sorry we’re so far apart. I’m afraid we will remain that way throughout eternity if you never ask Jesus to save you.
Rex the Baptist; NOT John the Baptist
Rex,
You say, "I’m sorry we’re so far apart. I’m afraid we will remain that way throughout eternity if you never ask Jesus to save you."
Please provide the scripture reference for your request of me to ask Jesus to save me.
Again as I said before you have no scripture reference for any of your beliefs. For you to say you take the priesthood upon yourself the way you did is ludicrous. I really don't understand how you come up with your beliefs. You need a prophet, you need apostles etc. Just as is taught in the Bible.
Seriously, go run into a wall so you can jar all of that 'stuff' out of your brain and you can start over in your understanding of the gospel. because what you say you believe is not found in any Bible I know of.
Please show me where Jesus says I must call out to Him and commands me to ask for Him to save me and then I will be saved!!!!
Please
April 1, 2007
Scott,
“Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Acts 2:21)
Is Jesus Lord? (Acts 9: 4-5) “…Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest…”
Matthew 14:30) When Peter started to sink while walking on water, he yelled: “…Lord, save me.” This simple physical act is a symbol of our asking Jesus to save us spiritually.
Scott, here are some people that tell how we are saved.
1. Jesus—“Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)
2. Jesus—“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
3. John the Baptist—“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life…” (John 3:36)
4. Peter—“…He cleansed their lives through faith, just as He did ours…all are saved the same way by the free gift of the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 15: 9, 11)
5. Philip—“…If thou believest with all thine heart…” (Acts 8; 37)
6. Author of Hebrews—“…We don’t need to speak further about the foolishness of trying to be saved by being good…” (Hebrews 6:1)
7. John the Elder—“I have written this to you who believe in the Son of God so that you may know you have eternal life.” (I John 5:13)
8. Jude—“…salvation God has given us…” (Jude 1:3)
9. Paul—“…you’ve been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God.” (Ephesians 2:8)
10. Holy Spirit—“The Holy Spirit fell upon all them which heard the word.” (Acts 10:44) The ‘word’ was what Peter said in verse 43—“…that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
Paul explained the importance of works—“…do good things that result from being saved, obeying God with deep reverence.” (Philippians 2:12) “…fire will test the quality of each man’s work…if…it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved…” (I Corinthians 3:13-15)
“Even when we are too weak to have any faith left, He remains faithful to us and will help us, for He cannot disown us who are part of Himself…” (2 Timothy 2:13)
Excluding Matthew, Mark, and Luke; Scriptures that teach FAITH PLUS NOTHING for salvation by believing, faith, trusting, or a gift from God are:
John—1:4, 12,13 2:6 3:15, 16, 18, 33, 36 5:24, 25, 34, 40 6:29, 33, 35, 37, 39, 40, 47, 63, 68 7:38, 39, 8:24 10:10, 28, 29 11:25, 26, 46, 17:2
Acts—2::21, 38 4:12 8:20, 37 10:44 11:17 13:8-12, 39, 48 15:2, 8, 10, 11 16:14, 31 17:4M 8 20:21 26:18 28:24
Romans—1:5, 17 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31 4:3, 5, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 22, 23, 24 5:1, 2 6:15 9:32, 38 10:6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 17 11:6
1 Corinthians—1:30 3:14 7:23
Galatians—2:16, 19, 20 3:2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 17, 24, 26 4:9, 21, 31 5:2, 4, 6, 11 6:12
Ephesians—1:12, 13m 15 2:8, 9, 21 3:12
Philippians—1:29 3:7, 9
Colossians—1:23, 27 2:6, 12
1 Timothy—1:4 2:15
2 Timothy—1:1
Titus—1:1 2:11
Hebrews—2:11 3:30 6:1 10:39 11:6
1 Peter—1:5, 9, 14, 22, 2:6
2 Peter—1:1
1 John—4:15 5:1, 4, 5 5:13
Jude 1:3
Scriptures that teach FAITH PLUS WORKS for salvation.
In Acts 15:20, 27-29, 21:25, James names three traditions Gentiles must obey even after Peter has rebuked the Christian Jews for demanding Gentiles to obey all the laws of Moses for salvation; Peter told them: “And now are you going to correct God by BURDENING the Gentiles with a yoke that neither we nor our fathers were able to bear?”
James claims it was the Holy Spirit’s decision about the burden he put on the Gentiles in Acts 15:28: “For it was the Holy Spirit’s decision—and ours—to put no greater BURDEN on you than these necessary things.”
If we believe Peter’s words, then the Holy Spirit would have had to correct God if what James said was true. I believe James lied about the Holy Spirit’s decision. He wanted to portray the Holy Spirit on his side to support man’s rules for salvation.
So who do we believe, James a scoffer of his Brother, or a man who had three years of teaching from the greatest teacher that ever lived?
Who do we believe, a man whose shadow would heal any sickness, or a man who used the tradition of putting oil on a sick person’s head?
Who do we believe, a man who did greater miracles than Jesus or a man who probably never saw a miracle?
All the Jewish Christians continued to obey the customs, traditions, and Jewish laws as shown by Acts 21:24.
James said Abraham and Rahab were saved by what they did in James 2:21, 25. (James 2:25) says a man is saved by what he does as well as by what he believes.
These verses imply that without works, a man cannot be saved or may lose his salvation:
James 1:12, 26 2:1, 12, 13 ,14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 5:30
1 John 2:4, 6,17, 24, 3:7, 9, 10, 19 4:8
2 John 1:8, 9
3 John 1:11
Should this Scripture (Galatians 1:6-9) be a warning to the Book of Mormon? “ I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ, [and are turning] to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him:”
Paul fought a loosing battle; the majority went on to be Catholics in 313 AD. They started baptizing babies for salvation in 251 AD, and that is when the roots of Baptists withdrew fellowship from them and these were called the hated name of ‘Anabaptist.’
Scott, Baptists are not Protestants since they existed before Catholics ever received their name.
Did you ever find that little book “The Trail of Blood” by JM Carroll. He died the year I was born.
That is about as much as I know in answering your “Please.”
Rex Ray
Rex,
A lot of scriptures about nothing. In all the scriptures you quoted, not one of them said the only thing that we have to do to be saved is confess a belief in Christ. And to be sure of it, none of them we Christ saying it.
You are INFERRING your own belief on most of these scriptures. You even say that you choose not to believe James for your own reasons and purposes.
Again, please show me one scripture where Jesus said all we have to do is say I believe in you and I'm saved!
Can't do it cause it ain't there.
Funny how you castigate Mormons for supposedly interpreting scripture to fit their needs, yet you are doing the same thing. I'd call that a little hypocritical.
Did you want General Conference yesterday and Saturday? I hope so. There were many wonderful testimonies born of the divinity of the Savior Jesus Christ who you say we don't believe in or worship.
You might go to Mormon.org or LDS.org to listen and read some of the testimonies. These came from Apostles and the Prophet of God. You know the ones Paul talked about in Eph 4:11-15 which talks about the necessity of apostles and prophets so true believers won't be swayed by people like you being tossed to and fro by the philosophies of men!
So go back and try again to find that scripture by Jesus Christ that says all I have to do is say I believe in Him and I'm saved.
Can't do it, it ain't there. Wow, I sound like a broken record in trying to help you understand that Bible you read.
Monday 4/2
April 4, 2007
Scott,
You say, “So go back and try again to find that scripture by Jesus Christ that says all I have to do is say I believe in Him and I’m saved.”
OK, I’ll do it again:
“Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Acts 2:21)
"Whoever [Scott the Mormon] shall call [to appeal; to cry; to believe] on the name of the Lord [Jesus Christ] shall be saved.”
And “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)
What works did the thief do to go to heaven? All he did was ask Jesus to remember him when Jesus came to his kingdom. (verse 42) “And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.”
Kingdom?? Jesus was dying on a cross! Why did the thief say Jesus was going to his Kingdom? The thief believed Jesus was the Son of God, and he asked to be remembed which indicated he would like to join Jesus.
Scott it’s as simple as that. Ask Jesus to remember you.
Ask him today…it only takes the twinkling of an eye or a tear drop.
Rex
Rex,
Call on Him is such a simple phrase and yet so mistaken for what purpose it has.
What does that mean? Pray to Him? Ask for forgiveness? Repentance? Acknowledge Christ as my Savior? Well, my friend, anyone who prays to Him is calling on Him. Anyone who does His works is calling on Him. Anyone who obeys His commandments is calling on Him.
So exactly, what definition is it to call on Him.
Don't get me wrong, everyone should call on the Lord for everything. But again, just saying I believe does NOT mean I will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom with my Lord and Savior. I call your attention again to Matt. 7:21-23.... How do you explain the Lord's rebuke of those who supposedly professed His name and called Lord, Lord but they were not admitted into the Lords Kingdom?
Obviously the Lord is saying not all who profess His name will be admitted.
As for the thief on the cross.... well Rex, you are showing your lack of knowledge about your beloved Bible again. Paradise is NOT heaven. As I've explained to you over and over again, Christ did NOT go to your definition of heaven when He died. He went to the spirit world to organize missionary efforts. Paradise is the spirit world where all go who die until the time to be resurrected.
Again, that's why baptisms for the dead are needed which is detailed a few times in your Bible but you brush them off as untruths.
By the way, you never did explain to me how you pick and choose which parts of the Bible you want to embrace and the parts that you don't want to embrace. (grace versus works) You know, how you dismiss James...
Rex, I keep telling you, call the missionaries and get a Book of Mormon. Your Bible will take on a whole new enlightenment when the fog is lifted from your eyes. The Book of Mormon doesn't take away from the Bible, it merely takes away the confusion.
It only takes a minute, a tear drop and a wink.
You don't have to remain in darkness Rex. You can enjoy the light of the fulness of the gospel which will lead you to salvation.
Here are a couple of other scripture references for your review. As you can tell by the first one, Christ had not ascended to Heavenly Father yet which means He did NOT go to heaven. So how did the thief get to heaven when Christ didn't?
John 20: 17.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Alma 40: 21 (11-14, 21).
21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
Again, paradise is NOT heaven.....if paradise is heaven, is there any other reference to it by Christ calling heaven paradise? Nope.
Rex, Call the missionaries !!!
April 6, 2007
Scott,
This will probably be my last comment. Remember the Bible is taught by the Holy Spirit the truth from the untruth as Paul wrote in (2 Timothy 2:15) “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth.”
You say, “Call the missionaries!!!”
Your words remind me of 3 John 1: 9-10. “I sent a brief letter to the church about this, [reported to the ‘mother church’ Jerusalem] but proud Diotrephes, who loves to push himself forward as the leader of the Christians there, does not admit my authority over him and refuses to listen to me. When I come I will tell you some of the things he is doing and what wicked things he is saying about me and what insulting language he is using. He not only refuses to welcome the MISSIONARY travelers himself, but tells others not to, and when they do he tries to put them out of the church.”
In a nutshell, that is the condition of the first Christians. The great majority followed James’ JUDGMENT, and obeyed all the customs, traditions, and the Laws of Moses. They just ADDED Christ to their way of salvation. Besides Jesus, they still depended on works for salvation.
The other small group of Christians followed Paul, Peter, and Barnabus as they interpreted the teachings of Christ. They believed salvation came by “FAITH ONLY.” (Definition of faith is belief and obedience in ACTION) Paul wrote close to a hundred Scriptures backing up his belief.
1. Who wrote 3 John and had wicked things said about him? He is identified in Second and Third John as “The Elder.” Elders were a dime a dozen. If he was an Apostle, it would be like Clinton announcing he was governor of Arkansas instead of president of the United States.
2. What way of salvation did the Elder teach? (2 John 1:8-9) “Watch out, so that you do not lose the prize [heaven] for which we have been WORKING so hard. Be diligent [do works] so that you will receive your full reward. [heaven] For if you wander [stop works] beyond the teaching of Christ, [according to me] you will not have fellowship with God. [not go to heaven] But if you continue [doing works] in the teaching of Christ, [according to me] you will have fellowship with both the Father and the Son.” [go to heaven]
3. What did Diotrephes do? (3 John 1:10) “…wicked…insulting language…refuses…MISSIONARY travelers.” To me, it sounds like he was obeying Paul’s command, (Galatians 1:8-9) “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other that what we have preached to you, a curse be on him!...if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!” Diotrephes put a curse on The Elder, and that is what Baptists have been doing since then.
The Christians that were taught by Paul did not have the Book of Mormon or the teachings of Joseph Smith.
Scott, so that you understand this real plain, I put a curse on the Book of Mormon and missionaries teaching Joseph Smith.
Rex Ray
Rex Ray,
You crack me up. Again, you don't answer any of my questions with scripture. YOU have twisted the Bible to mean what YOU think it should mean.
You put a curse on the Book of Mormon and the missionaries. Please, spare me the theatrics of an old foolish man.
Sorry Rex Ray, but you are one of the unbelievers who refuses to listen to the promptings of the Holy Ghost which will lead someone to the truth.
Down in flames..... you gooooooooooo
Is putting a "curse" on someone a very Christian act?
Please let me know how you think Christ would feel about your actions.
You are going to be embarrassed when you die and go to the spirit world, also known as paradise, and the missionaries there start teaching you the gospel.
Be sure to tell them that you put a curse on them! You actually might even meet Joseph Smith there and you tell him in person that he is a false prophet.
Rex Ray,
Here are the words of the Lord's prophet to all the world. Thought you'd like to read them....
The Things of Which I Know
President Gordon B. Hinckley
I wish to give you my testimony of the basic truths of this work.
President Gordon B. HinckleyMy beloved brothers and sisters, I am pleased with the opportunity to speak to you. I thank each of you for your prayers in my behalf. I am so very deeply grateful to you. In my 49 years as a General Authority, I have spoken well over 200 times in general conference. I am now in my 97th year. The wind is blowing, and I feel like the last leaf on the tree.
Actually my health is quite good, despite all the rumors to the contrary. Skillful doctors and nurses keep me on the right track. Some of you may go before I do. However, with my age in mind, I wish to give you my testimony of the basic truths of this work.
I confess that I do not know everything, but of some things I am certain. Of the things of which I know, I speak to you this morning.
When the emperor Constantine was converted to Christianity, he became aware of the divisiveness among the clergy concerning the nature of Deity. In an attempt to overcome this he gathered the eminent divines of the day to Nicaea in the year 325. Each participant was given opportunity to state his views. The argument only grew more heated. When a definition could not be reached, a compromise was made. It came to be known as the Nicene Creed, and its basic elements are recited by most of the Christian faithful.
Personally I cannot understand it. To me the creed is confusing.
How deeply grateful I am that we of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith, who, while yet a boy, spoke with God the Eternal Father and His Beloved Son, the Risen Lord. He knelt in Their presence; he heard Their voices; and he responded. Each was a distinct personality. Small wonder that he told his mother that he had learned that her church was not true. And so, one of the great overarching doctrines of this Church is our belief in God the Eternal Father. He is a being, real and individual. He is the great Governor of the universe, yet He is our Father, and we are His children.
We pray to Him, and those prayers are a conversation between God and man. I am confident that He hears our prayers and answers them. I could not deny that. I have had too many experiences of answered prayers.
Alma instructed his son Helaman, saying, "Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good; yea, when thou liest down at night lie down unto the Lord, that he may watch over you in your sleep; and when thou risest in the morning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God; and if ye do these things, ye shall be lifted up at the last day" (Alma 37:37).
The second great certitude of which I am sure also has its foundation in the vision of the Prophet Joseph. It is that Jesus lives. He is the Living Christ. He is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and the Messiah of the New. Under His Father's direction, He was the Creator of the earth. The gospel of John opens with these remarkable words: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
"The same was in the beginning with God.
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:1–3).
Note particularly that last verse, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
He was the great Creator. It was His finger that wrote the commandments on the Mount. It was He who left His royal courts on high and came to earth, born under the most humble of circumstances. During His brief ministry, He healed the sick, caused the blind to see, raised the dead, and rebuked the scribes and Pharisees. He was the only perfect man ever to walk the earth. All of this was part of His Father's plan. In the Garden of Gethsemane, He suffered so greatly that he sweat drops of blood as He pleaded with His Father. But this was all a part of His great atoning sacrifice. He was taken by the mob, appeared before Pilate with the mob crying for His death. He carried the cross, the instrument of His death. On Golgotha He gave His life, crying out, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).
His body was tenderly laid in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea. But three days later, on that first Easter morning, the tomb was emptied. Mary of Magdala spoke to Him, and He spoke to her. He appeared to His Apostles. He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. And, we are told, He was seen by some 500 others (see 1 Corinthians 15:6).
He had said, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16). Accordingly, He appeared to those assembled in the land Bountiful in the Western Hemisphere. Here, He taught the people as He had taught them in the Old World. This is all recorded in detail in the Book of Mormon, which stands as a second witness of the divinity of our Lord.
And to repeat, both He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph, the Father introducing the Son, saying: "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" (Joseph Smith—History 1:17).
Now, the next thing of which I am certain, and of which I bear witness, is the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Without it life is meaningless. It is the keystone in the arch of our existence. It affirms that we lived before we were born in mortality. Mortality is but a stepping-stone to a more glorious existence in the future. The sorrow of death is softened with the promise of the Resurrection. There would be no Christmas if there were no Easter.
I speak next of the great certitudes that have come with the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is the restoration of the priesthood, or the authority given man to speak in the name of God. This priesthood is of two orders: the lesser, also known as the Aaronic, was restored under the hands of John the Baptist. The higher order of priesthood, the Melchizedek, was restored under the hands of Peter, James, and John.
In restoring the Aaronic Priesthood, the resurrected John the Baptist laid his hands on the heads of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and said, "Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins" (D&C 13:1).
President Wilford Woodruff in his old age spoke to the young men of the Church and said: "I desire to impress upon you the fact that it does not make any difference whether a man is a Priest or an Apostle, if he magnifies his calling. A Priest holds the keys of the ministering of angels. Never in my life, as an Apostle, as a Seventy, or as an Elder, have I ever had more of the protection of the Lord than while holding the office of a Priest" (in Millennial Star, Oct. 5, 1891, 629).
The Melchizedek or Higher Priesthood empowers men to lay their hands upon the heads of others and give blessings. They bless the sick. As James declared in the New Testament: "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" (James 5:14).
Now finally, I mention the blessings of the house of the Lord, which have come of the Restoration of the ancient gospel.
These temples, which we have greatly multiplied in recent years, offer blessings that are had nowhere else. All that occurs in these sacred houses has to do with the eternal nature of man. Here, husbands and wives and children are sealed together as families for all eternity. Marriage is not "until death do ye part." It is forever, if the parties live worthy of the blessing. Most remarkable of all is the authority to do vicarious work in the house of the Lord. Here, ordinances are performed in behalf of the dead who did not have opportunity to receive them while in life.
I was recently told of a woman in Idaho Falls, a widow. Over a period of 15 years she acted as proxy in giving the temple endowment to 20,000 individuals in the Idaho Falls Idaho Temple. She completed her 20,000th endowment on a Friday and returned on Saturday to do five more. She passed away the following week.
Just think of what this one little woman did. She performed these vicarious endowments for as many people as are assembled in this Conference Center this morning. Think of the reception she must have received on the other side.
Now, my brothers and sisters, this is my testimony, which I solemnly bear before you.
God bless you, every one, you faithful Latter-day Saints. May there be peace and love in your homes and faith and prayer to guide you in all that you undertake is my humble prayer, in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Rex,
Don't know if you have finished the other article yet, but here is another one from one of the Lord's 12 Apostles. You know, just like the Lord had when He established His church.
Enjoy!
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April 2007
The Message of the Restoration
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The Message of the Restoration
Elder L. Tom Perry
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
We declare to the world that the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth.
Elder L. Tom PerryIn one of my stake conference assignments in the Salt Lake Valley, I invited a young deacons quorum president to join me to talk about the keys of the priesthood. I wanted him to understand that he held a very special office that included the keys to preside over a quorum of the priesthood. We talked about the great responsibility it is to hold keys and how special it is to belong to a quorum. At the conclusion of the little presentation, I asked him how many members he had in his quorum. His answer was 14.
Then the question: "How many are active?"
The answer: "12."
Then I asked: "What about the other two?"
His response was: "I need to get to work and make them an active part of our quorum."
I asked him how long that would take. He thought maybe three months. I encouraged him in his efforts.
Three months later, almost to the day, I received a letter from him informing me that all the members of his quorum were now active. He said he had befriended them, and one was now attending deacons quorum meetings, and the other had been ordained a teacher by the bishop. I was overwhelmed with his response. What an example of one honoring his priesthood and using priesthood keys to carry out an assignment the Lord has given him to fulfill. I could not help but marvel at the design the Lord has established for the administration of His work here on earth using the powers of the priesthood.
This young man, not yet 14 years of age, is receiving valuable training to prepare him for a lifetime of service. Can you see him in the next five or six years continuing this service with a badge on his suit coat indicating that he is giving two years of his life as a missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
In addition to the experience he is gaining exercising his priesthood in service to others, this young man's preparation must also include a solid understanding of the message of the Restoration—the message that thousands of missionaries today are declaring to the world. It is the message that in our day, in the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored for the blessing of all who will listen and obey.
The First Vision
The dispensation of the fulness of times was ushered in by a very special vision to another young man not quite 15 years of age who went to the woods to pray for answers to the questions he had in his mind concerning religion. Joseph Smith describes the glorious vision that was unfolded to his view, in these words:
"I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
" . . . When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17).
This vision revealed unto us that God our Father and Jesus Christ, His Beloved Son, are two separate personages. Each has a body of flesh and bones that is glorified and perfected, thus clearing up the misconception that had been in existence for many centuries concerning the concept of God. Is it any wonder that when Joseph Smith wrote the Articles of Faith, in the first one he declared, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost"? (Articles of Faith 1:1).
The Book of Mormon
Knowing that doubt, disbelief, and misinformation would immediately follow the Prophet as he recounted the First Vision, the Lord brought forth the Book of Mormon, another testament of our Lord Jesus Christ. This ancient volume of holy scriptures is a sacred companion to the Bible, containing the fulness of the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ. It also provides convincing evidence to the world that Joseph Smith is truly a prophet of God. The Doctrine and Covenants contains the following declaration about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon:
"[God] gave unto [Joseph Smith] commandments which inspired him;
"And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
"Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
"Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by them—
"Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old" (D&C 20:7–11).
The translation of the Book of Mormon is a miracle in itself and gives further proof of the book's divine origin. When Oliver Cowdery arrived in Harmony, Pennsylvania, on April 5, 1829, to serve as the Prophet's scribe, only a few pages of the final text had been translated. That evening Joseph and Oliver sat down together and discussed the Prophet's experiences long into the night. Two days later, on April 7, they commenced the translation of the work. Over the next three months, Joseph translated at an amazing rate—approximately 500 printed pages in about 60 working days.
Oliver wrote of this remarkable experience: "These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim . . . the history, or record, called 'The book of Mormon' " (Messenger and Advocate, Oct. 1834, 14; see also Joseph Smith—History 1:71, note).
The Priesthood
As they proceeded, Joseph and Oliver were thrilled with the doctrines contained in this book. They were particularly impressed with the doctrine of baptism as taught by the resurrected Savior during His visit to the inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere. The importance of the doctrine of baptism was clearly unfolded to their minds. They determined that they must seek the Lord in mighty prayer that they might learn how they could obtain the blessing of being baptized themselves.
On May 15, 1829, they went to the woods near the Susquehanna River and knelt in prayer. Oliver describes what happened next: "On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us, while the vail was parted and the angel of God came down clothed with glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the gospel of repentance!—What joy! what wonder! what amazement! While the world [was] racked and distracted—while millions were [groping] as the blind for the wall, and while all men were resting upon uncertainty, as a general mass, our eyes beheld—our ears heard" (Messenger and Advocate, Oct. 1834, 15; see also Joseph Smith—History 1:71, note).
The angel introduced himself as John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament. He laid his hands upon the heads of Joseph and Oliver and said:
"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
"He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.
"Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded" (Joseph Smith—History 1:69–71).
A short time later, the Apostles Peter, James, and John appeared, placed their hands on the heads of these two fellow servants, and conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood.
The Church of Jesus Christ
Now that the power to act in the name of the Lord was again on the earth, Joseph was commanded to formally organize the Church. On April 6, 1830, at the home of Peter Whitmer Sr. in Fayette, New York, six men who had previously been baptized voted unanimously to organize, according to the commandments of God, the Church of Jesus Christ. At this meeting a revelation was received:
"Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou [Joseph Smith] shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ,
"Being inspired of the Holy Ghost to lay the foundation thereof, and to build it up unto the most holy faith.
"Which church was organized and established in the year of your Lord eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.
"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
"For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith" (D&C 21:1–5).
Thus the Church of Jesus Christ was again in existence on the earth to bless mankind with the doctrines and teachings of the Savior. This Church was organized according to the plan the Lord had established anciently.
In the Bible, in the book of Ephesians, Paul declared:
"He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ" (Ephesians 4:11–15).
President Hinckley has said concerning the Restoration: "After many generations had walked the earth—so many of them in conflict, hatred, darkness, and evil—there arrived the great, new day of the Restoration. This glorious gospel was ushered in with the appearance of the Father and the Son to the boy Joseph. The dawn of the dispensation of the fulness of times rose upon the world. All of the good, the beautiful, the divine of all previous dispensations was restored in this most remarkable season" ("The Dawning of a Brighter Day," Liahona and Ensign, May 2004, 83).
Our message is unique. We declare to the world that the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth. We declare with boldness that the keys of the priesthood have been restored to man, with the power to seal on earth and in the heavens. The saving ordinances pronounced by the Lord as requirements for entering into eternal life with Him can now be performed with binding authority by those who worthily exercise the power of His holy priesthood. We declare to the world that this is the day referred to by biblical prophets as the latter days. It is the final time, before the coming of Jesus Christ to rule and reign over the earth.
We invite all to listen to the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ from us. Then you can compare the glorious message with what you may hear from others, and you can determine which is from God and which is from man.
My witness to you is that this is the Church of Jesus Christ, established in the latter days. In the name of our Lord and Savior, even Jesus Christ, amen.
Rex,
Here is another testimony from one of the Lord's 12 Apostles who live on the earth today. Just like Christ set up when He established His church.
You how to find that in the Bible, right?
April 2007
The Miracle of the Holy Bible
Elder M. Russell Ballard
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
We are true and full believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His revealed word through the Holy Bible.
Elder M. Russell BallardMy brothers and sisters, the Holy Bible is a miracle! It is a miracle that the Bible's 4,000 years of sacred and secular history were recorded and preserved by the prophets, apostles, and inspired churchmen.
It is a miracle that we have the Bible's powerful doctrine, principles, poetry, and stories. But most of all, it is a wonderful miracle that we have the account of the life, ministry, and words of Jesus, which was protected through the Dark Ages and through the conflicts of countless generations so that we may have it today.
It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men's hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.
The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Abraham Lincoln said of the Bible: "This Great Book . . . is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong" (Speeches and Writings, 1859–1865 [1989], 628).
It is not by chance or coincidence that we have the Bible today. Righteous individuals were prompted by the Spirit to record both the sacred things they saw and the inspired words they heard and spoke. Other devoted people were prompted to protect and preserve these records. Men like John Wycliffe, the courageous William Tyndale, and Johannes Gutenberg were prompted against much opposition to translate the Bible into language people could understand and to publish it in books people could read. I believe even the scholars of King James had spiritual promptings in their translation work.
The Dark Ages were dark because the light of the gospel was hidden from the people. They did not have the apostles or prophets, nor did they have access to the Bible. The clergy kept the scriptures secret and unavailable to the people. We owe much to the many brave martyrs and reformers like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Huss who demanded freedom to worship and common access to the holy books.
William Tyndale gave his life because he believed so deeply in the power of the Bible. He said, "The nature of God's word is, that whosoever read it, or hear it reasoned and disputed before him, it will begin immediately to make him every day better and better, till he be grown into a perfect man" (in S. Michael Wilcox, Fire in the Bones: William Tyndale—Martyr, Father of the English Bible [2004], xv).
Honest, diligent study of the Bible does make us better and better, and we must ever remember the countless martyrs who knew of its power and who gave their lives that we may be able to find within its words the path to the eternal happiness and the peace of our Heavenly Father's kingdom.
Although these early Christian reformers agreed on many things, they ultimately disagreed on many points of doctrine. This resulted in the organization of numerous Christian denominations. Roger Williams, an early champion of religious liberty, concluded that there was "no regularly-constituted Church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance; nor could there be, until new apostles were sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming he was seeking" (see William Cullen Bryant, ed., Picturesque America; or, the Land We Live In, 2 vols. [1872–74], 1:502).
Tens of millions of individuals have come to a faith in God and in Jesus Christ through seeking truth in the Holy Bible. Countless numbers of them had nothing but the Bible to feed and guide their faith.
Because of the efforts of the reformers, "the Bible became a household possession. The word of God was read around the family fireside of the lowly as well as the parlors of the great" (John A. Widtsoe, in Conference Report, Apr. 1939, 20).
Millions of families have come together seeking to find the Church of Jesus Christ through their study of the Bible. One of those families, in the early 1800s in upstate New York, was the family of Joseph Smith Sr. One of his sons was Joseph Smith Jr., who searched the Bible, seeking to know which of the many denominations was the same as the Church that Jesus Christ organized. He was prompted by the words of the Bible to pray for further spiritual light and knowledge from God. Determined to seek the wisdom promised in the holy scriptures, Joseph knelt in humble prayer early in the spring of 1820. Oh, what marvelous light and truth were shed upon him that day as he beheld the glorious manifestation of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ! Once again God called a prophet as He did in the days of Noah, Abraham, and Moses.
How grateful we should be for the Holy Bible. In it we learn not only of the life and teachings and doctrines of Christ, we learn of His Church and of His priesthood and of the organization which He established and named the Church of Jesus Christ in those former days. We believe in that Church, and we believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that same Church, restored to earth, complete, with the same organization and the same priesthood.
Without the Bible, we would not know of His Church then, nor would we have the fulness of His gospel now.
I love the Bible, its teachings, its lessons, and its spirit. I love the Old Testament's compelling, profound stories and its great prophets testifying of the coming of Christ. I love the New Testament's apostolic travels and miracles and the letters of Paul. Most of all, I love its eyewitness accounts of the words and the example and the Atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ. I love the perspective and peace that come from reading the Bible.
Brothers and sisters, I am sure many of you have had the experience of hearing people say that "Mormons are not Christians because they have their own Bible, the Book of Mormon." To anyone harboring this misconception, we say that we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior and the author of our salvation and that we believe, revere, and love the Holy Bible. We do have additional sacred scripture, including the Book of Mormon, but it supports the Bible, never substituting for it.
Jesus taught that we should "search the scriptures; for . . . they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39). These words provide insight and inspiration to all who sincerely seek to know and understand the truth about Jesus Christ. The scriptures are rich in history, doctrine, stories, sermons, and testimonies, all of which ultimately focus on the eternal Christ and His physical and spiritual mission to Heavenly Father's children.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable" (2 Timothy 3:16). We love the Bible and other scriptures. That may be surprising to some who may not be aware of our belief in the Bible as the revealed word of God. It is one of the pillars of our faith, a powerful witness of the Savior and of Christ's ongoing influence in the lives of those who worship and follow Him. The more we read and study the Bible and its teachings, the more clearly we see the doctrinal underpinnings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. We tend to love the scriptures that we spend time with. We may need to balance our study in order to love and understand all scripture.
You young people especially, do not discount or devalue the Holy Bible. It is the sacred, holy record of the Lord's life. The Bible contains hundreds of pages more than all of our other scripture combined. It is the bedrock of all Christianity. We do not criticize or belittle anyone's beliefs. Our great responsibility as Christians is to share all that God has revealed with all of His sons and daughters.
Those who join this Church do not give up their faith in the Bible—they strengthen it. The Book of Mormon does not dilute nor diminish nor de-emphasize the Bible. On the contrary, it expands, extends, and exalts it. The Book of Mormon testifies of the Bible, and both testify of Christ.
The first testament of Christ is the Bible's Old Testament, which predicted and prophesied of the coming of the Savior, His transcendent life, and His liberating Atonement.
The second Bible testament of Christ is the New Testament, which records His birth, His life, His ministry, His gospel, His Church, His Atonement, and His Resurrection, as well as the testimonies of His Apostles.
The third testament of Christ is the Book of Mormon, which also foretells Christ's coming, confirms the Bible's account of His saving Atonement, and then reveals the resurrected Lord's visit to the earth's other hemisphere. The subtitle of the Book of Mormon, the clarifying purpose statement printed on the cover of every copy, is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ."
Each of these three testaments is a part of the great, indivisible whole of the Lord's revealed word to His children. They contain the words of Christ, which we have been admonished to feast upon as a means of qualifying for eternal life (see 2 Nephi 31:20). Those who think that one part is more important or more true than the other parts are missing some of the beauty and completeness of the canon of ancient scripture.
And those who think that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not believe in Jesus Christ or in the Bible should take time to understand the Church, the significance of its name, and the power of its message.
I am puzzled by any who would question this Church's belief in the Bible and our position as Christians. The name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In our last general conference, here in this building, our Church leaders quoted from the Bible nearly 200 times. This Church is organized and functions like the Church that Christ and His Apostles established in the New Testament. Seated on the stand today are the prophet and the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I bear solemn witness that we are true and full believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His revealed word through the Holy Bible. We not only believe the Bible—we strive to follow its precepts and to teach its message. The message of our missionaries is Christ and His gospel and His Atonement, and the scriptures are the text of that message. We say to all people, "We extend our love to you and invite you to come. Let us share all that God has revealed."
My brothers and sisters, we must help all people, including our own members, understand the power and importance of the Holy Bible. The Bible is scripture that leads us and all mankind to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. May God grant us the desire and capacity to accept and live His teachings is my humble prayer in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.
April 18, 2007
Rex Ray said…
My missionary uncle, Rex Ray’s first born was buried in China when she was 5 years old. Her last words: “Mama, which one is our house?”
Rex,
thought you might want to read this found on Townhall.com.
Sunday, March 11, 2007 5:21 PM
Mormonism is a cult. Mormons aren’t Christians. Mormons worship Joseph Smith. Mormons believe in ________. (You can fill in that blank with just about anything, and chances are Mormons have been accused of believing it.) As a Mitt Romney presidential run is in the works, it seems that no post or article can be written on these blog sites without the comments eventually degrading into a debate about “what Mormons really believe.” Obscure quotes from early Mormon leaders are cut and pasted, websites are referred, and a full blown religious debate starts up. The debate usually involves a mainstream Christian, a Mormon who has repudiated the faith, someone hostile to Mormonism, a Mormon, or someone asking “why can’t we all just get along?” or some combination of the above.
Now I believe that a religious discussion is healthy. In fact, religion and politics (despite being the only things one doesn’t discuss in polite conversation) are the two most interesting things to talk about. But something about this Mormon religion generates fire whenever it is brought up… just read a few posts on Romney in the upcoming few weeks, you’ll agree. Each and every one so far has had an anti-Mormon poster at some point, and there is no reason to believe that will change in the future. In fact, as the Romney camp gets up and running, the accusations against Mormonism will only get more intense. And while I believe that Townhall.com is primarily a place for political discussion, I only sense more of this Mormon issue in the coming years, especially leading up to the election and after 2009, should Romney be elected. And it is very pertinent to the coming debate. So please bear with me, I’d like to teach a little bit about how Mormonism differs from mainstream Christianity. Don’t worry if you hate religion, I’ll still keep it political by closing with how that applies to this election. But you’ll still have to read a bit to get there…
Much of the material below is quoted verbatim, but I am not including the all the sources because 1) this isn’t a scholarly paper, and nobody is going to take my funding away for plagiarism, and 2) all this info is freely available through a simple Google search.
Establishment of the First Christian Church
When Jesus Christ lived in mortality he established a Church.(Mat. 16:18; Mat. 18:17; Acts 2:47; 5:11; 8:1; 11:26; 14:23) It was not the Church of John the Baptist who had prepared the way before him, nor was it the Church of Peter, nor of Paul or Apollos, nor of any other of his followers. It was his own Church. He was its head. (Eph. 5: 23) It was his to formulate and direct.
The Church was an organization through which his followers could work out their salvation (Phil. 2:12) and receive help and comfort, for they were not to be left in an unorganized condition. The Church was a necessary help and guide for each individual seeking to walk the narrow way which leads to life.
Admission to his Church was by baptism in water (Mat. 3:1-17; 28:19-20; Mark 16:14-16; John 3:5) and he himself set the example by receiving baptism at the hands of John. Those who joined his Church became heirs of salvation in that they were given the opportunity to accept his way of life and become like Him (Mat. 6:33; 5:48).
He placed various officers in his Church with specific duties to perform.(Luke 6:12-16; 10:1; Eph. 4:11-14) They were commanded not only to preach the gospel in all the world, (Mark 16:15) but also to watch over those who joined the Church, even as shepherds of the flock (Eph. 4:11-14: John 21:15-17) guiding them in the way of salvation and guarding them from "wolves" who might enter the fold. These officers were headed by the Apostles, (Eph. 2:19-21) and from the scriptural record it was obvious that the Lord intended that living Apostles should continue in the Church, to provide constant inspired guidance.
Prophets in Christian Church
There were prophets in the Church also.(Acts 13:1; 15:32; I Cor. 12:28; Eph. 2:20; Rev. 18:20) In fact, the Apostles themselves were prophets. It had been customary for God to deal with ancient Israel in Old Testament times through prophets, and at one time he even said that he would do nothing without first revealing himself to his servants the prophets.(Amos 3: 7) These prophets received revelation from God as the people needed divine help, and the revelations thus received form a large part of the Old Testament.
The Savior had no thought of leaving his newly organized Church without the guidance of heaven. He realized that he soon would leave mortality and ascend to his Father in heaven.
So prophets were placed in this new Christian Church. Their function was the same as that of the ancient prophets: that is to receive current revelation from the Lord for the direction of the people as their needs arose. Without such guidance from heaven, the Church would go astray.
Therefore, Paul taught the Ephesians: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body (Church) of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.''(Eph. 4:11-14)
There was no indication that such an organization ever would be changed, or that any part of it would become unnecessary.
Paul went still further in the next verse and declared that these Church officers were to protect the members of the Church from false doctrine, "that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine."
Earlier in his epistle he spoke to the Ephesian converts to the Church who had been gathered in from the world, and comforted them by saying, "ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the Saints (the members of the Church in that day were called Saints) and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone, in which all the building (the Church) fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord.'' (Eph. 2: 19-21)
To teach the Corinthians also that the Church was a carefully organized unit, with all parts necessary, he compared the Church to the human body. He taught that all converts are baptized into one Church or body, whether Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, and all partake of the same spirit. But, he writes, "the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body, is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body, is it therefore not of the body?'' (I Cor. 12:12-28)
And then he taught that as each part is essential, no portion can say to another, "I have no need of thee." All must be there, fitly joined together.
So the original organization of the Church, with its officers, ordinances and doctrines, was intended to continue unchanged until such a time as he explained to the Ephesians, as we all come to a unity of the faith, and reach perfection in Christ.(Eph 4:11-14)
The events following the ascension of the Savior also make it clear that the organization of the Church was intended to continue on. Judas, it will be remembered, died following his betrayal of Jesus. That left a vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Only eleven remained.
Was that quorum to go on as a quorum of eleven or was it to be restored to its original number of twelve? And if no one was named to succeed Judas, and still another Apostle died, leaving only ten in the group, was the quorum to go on with only ten? And if another, and another and another died, was the quorum so soon to disappear? What was the intention of the Lord?
It was made manifest soon after his ascension. A meeting of all the disciples of Jesus was called. They engaged in prayer and supplication. They were in number about one hundred and twenty.
Peter stood in their midst and spoke of the prediction of David concerning the betrayer Judas. He told the saints then that a successor to Judas must be chosen as a "witness with us of the Saviour's resurrection."
A New Apostle Is Chosen
Two of their most devoted associates were mentioned as possible successors. The Apostles did not take upon themselves the sole responsibility of choosing this new member of their council. They prayed and said, "Thou Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, that he may take part of this ministry and Apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots and the lot fell upon Matthias and he was numbered with the eleven Apostles.''(Acts 1: 15-26)
The Church had twelve Apostles again. There was a great significance in this action. It demonstrated beyond all doubt the fact that it was the plan and purpose of the Lord that the Quorum of Twelve should continue to be a Quorum of Twelve and not a Quorum of Eleven, or a Quorum of Ten, or Nine, finally to disappear. It gave meaning to all that Paul told the Ephesians. It gave encouragement to the Saints. It proved to them and to all men that the Church organization as provided by the Savior was to go on without change as long as men were willing to hear and accept the True Gospel.
Were any other Apostles chosen in that day? Everyone thinks first of Paul and usually the average person never links his name with the Quorum of Twelve. But why not? Were there to be thirteen Apostles in this Quorum of Twelve? Or did Paul succeed to the position of some other member of that sacred council who may have lost his life?
The scripture records the death of James the brother of the beloved disciple John. (Acts 12:2) That made at least one vacancy before the appointment of Paul.
Is the selection of any other new Apostle mentioned in sacred writ?
The thirteenth chapter of Acts tells of a meeting of the prophets and teachers of the Church, some of whom are named.
"As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands upon them, they sent them away.'' (Acts 13:1-3)
Current Revelation in Church
This was a case of current revelation to direct and guide the work of the Church. The revelation was addressed to the prophets and teachers who were there, and was obviously received by those prophets, again showing the need of continuous revelation in the true Church of Jesus Christ, through living prophets.
The scripture then goes on to say: "So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost departed." In the next chapter of this book of Acts we read of some of the experiences of these two who had thus been appointed. Verse 14 of chapter 14 reads: "Which, when the Apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of—."
Note that: "The Apostles Barnabas and Paul." The name of Barnabas preceded that of Paul. The name of Barnabas was included among those of the prophets in the meeting in Antioch in which Barnabas and Paul were chosen for this mission by direction from heaven. Would Barnabas have been a thirteenth or a fourteenth Apostle? Would Paul?
The pattern established by the Savior provided that there should be twelve Apostles and new men were appointed to succeed the original members as they passed away.
A careful reading of the nineteenth verse in the first chapter of Galatians is interesting. There Paul says: "But other of the Apostles saw I none SAVE JAMES THE LORD'S BROTHER." No further information is given on this point.
To anyone who reads and accepts the divine word, there can be no doubt that steps were taken in those days to perpetuate and maintain the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as leading officials of the Church, with world-wide jurisdiction.
Part of the divine commission given the Twelve was to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.(Mark 16:15) This they undertook to do. They traveled throughout the known world. Paul's journeys are most often noted in the sacred word, but evidently all traveled.
As they went from city to city, they preached the gospel of Christ and him crucified. Converts were made, despite severe persecution which at times ended in death.
Bishops Were Local Officers
Since the Apostles were commanded to go into all the world and preach to every creature, they could not stay in any one city to supervise their new converts. That would have been contrary to the nature of their call. They depended upon local Church government to carry on the work in their absence. After converting a group of believers, the Apostles therefore appointed local officers, known as presiding elders or bishops to conduct the affairs of the Church in each locality. The bishops or presiding elders thus appointed had purely local jurisdiction. Bishops were usually appointed in the larger congregations, presiding elders in the smaller ones.
The names of some of these bishops or presiding elders are known today. Titus, to whom Paul wrote the epistle by that name, presided in Crete and is so designated in the footnote at the end of the epistle. Timothy, to whom also Paul wrote epistles, presided in Ephesus as its first bishop, as is also mentioned at the end of the second epistle to Timothy in the Bible. Linus was named the first local presiding officer in Rome.
Since the Church grew rapidly at first, there soon came to be many small branches in as many different cities, and in each case a bishop or presiding elder directed the work in his own locality. Each bishop was equal in authority to every other bishop. The office was purely a local one since the Apostles were the general authorities. There was no thought in that day that a bishop would preside over any other bishop.
Repeated visits by the Apostles to many of these branches of the Church is recorded in scripture. Using the pen also to assist them in their responsibility of Church-wide supervision, they wrote epistles to the various branches, and hence we have in our Bibles today the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, John and Jude.
The picture of the early Church, then, was one of many branches in many cities, presided over by local officers known as bishops or elders, with men of general authority or jurisdiction, namely the Twelve Apostles, having over-all supervision.
Persecution Interrupts Process
But evil men raise obstacles to the work of God. This was true even in the life of the Savior, who regretted the rebelliousness of the people in the city of Capernaum. (Matt. 11:23)
It was so with the work of the Twelve and the spread of the early Christian Church.
Persecution became severe, first from the Jews, then from the Romans. Numerous members of the Church lost their lives. It became a crime to own Christian scripture, and many texts were destroyed, never to make it into the Bible. One by one the Apostles became martyrs. The severity of the times prevented the surviving ones from communicating with each other or holding meetings to carry on the work of the Church. This also prevented the filling of vacancies as had been the original intent.
At last only one Apostle remained. He was John. Seized by his persecutors he was subjected to vicious treatment. It is reported that at one time he was thrown into a vat of boiling oil. But Christian lore is that he had been promised by the Savior that he would live until the Second Coming of the Christ. (John 21:22-23) Therefore his tormenters could not kill him.
He was banished to the Isle of Patmos where he remained for some time, directing the work of the Church as the last of the general authorities on earth.
John Outlived Peter
Peter and Paul had died at approximately 68 AD, probably at Rome. In that year John was ministering in Ephesus. It was after that he was sent to Patmos, where he remained until the death of the Emperor Domitian in 96 A.D. (Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. Vol. 3, ch. 23.)
Then the Lord took John out of the ministry. Nothing is heard of him after about the year 101.
Why was John not permitted to tarry longer in that place? Because wickedness had nearly taken over the Church. Doctrines and ordinances were changed, authority was ignored, sin became rampant, even among the membership of the Church.
It will be remembered that nearly every one of the epistles of the Twelve had been written to combat some form of apostasy in the Church. A careful reading of them will reveal this fact. Some members denied the Christ, others no longer believed in a resurrection, the doctrines of the Jews had corrupted much of the Christian procedure, the glamour of the pagan rites crept into the Christian rituals. The true doctrine of God was lost. Philosophy from Greece had almost argued away the simple truths of Divinity. Man was rejecting the Christ and his Church and setting up teachings and forms of his own.
But this all had been predicted. The Lord foresaw this apostasy. (Matt. 24:9-12; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Thess. 2:11; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:1-3) As he would not perform further miracles before the unbelievers at Capernaum, neither would he leave his anointed Twelve in an apostate group. So John was taken from among men.
Drifted Without Direction
This left the Church, drifting as it was, without any general authorities. It left the several branches in the scattered cities of the known world with only local authorities to direct them. There was no longer on earth a court of last appeal. Each bishop or presiding elder was left to his own devices.
The Church now suffered from a three-fold attack:
1. A great intensified persecution, during which the government itself became the chief aggressor, branding Christians as disloyal, and treating them as traitors. This resulted in wholesale massacres, and in forcing the surviving Christians underground.
2. The influence of philosophy on the simple truths of the gospel, resulting eventually in a completely different concept of the existence of God and the introduction of many of the Greek mysteries as doctrines and practices in the Church. As a result of this we see a new and completely different interpretation of the doctrine of deity which eventually led to the adoption of the Nicene creed. From Egypt came the adoration of the Mother and Child, Gnosticism and Neoplatonism obscured the true Christian creed; from Phrygia came the worship of the Great Mother, and from non-Christian dramatic rituals came a mass with its congeries of prayers, psalms, readings and recitations.
"Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind dying, came to a transmigrated life in the theology and liturgy of the Church; the Greek language, having reigned for centuries over philosophy, became the vehicle of Christian literature and ritual; the Greek mysteries passed down into the impressive mystery of the mass.'' (Durrant, Caesar and Christ, p. 595.)
3. Jealousies, intrigue and personal ambitions within the Church itself.
For two hundred years after the disappearance of John the Beloved, this condition grew. The Church became divided in many ways. No longer was there agreement on doctrine. The fundamental belief in the nature and being of God became a source of major dispute. Such a simple ordinance as baptism became a subject of debate. The mode was changed, and also the purpose. At this time too was introduced the doctrine that no divine authority was required to perform a baptism. Infant baptism was begun. Efforts of some bishops resulted in bitterness and bloodshed.
But as persecution by the government subsided, the Church again grew in membership, partly because of its acceptance of popular views and practices of pagan churches of the day, and partly because it lowered its own standards.
A Political Opportunist
Then came the days of Constantine the Great. With an eye to political advantage, and not because of conversion, for he remained a sun-worshipper through most of his life and was not baptized as a Christian for 25 years, he saw personal political advantage in fostering the Christian religion.
He was of the opinion that with the renewed popularity of this now changed Christianity, it was the religion of the future. Having recently fought a long civil war he felt that a state religion as popular as Christianity had become, would help him solidify his empire. He therefore took the Christian religion under his wing. Making it the favored religion of the state gave to the emperor vast influence in the operation of the Church, which in later times virtually became a department of the civil government, placing the emperor in a position to direct it very much as he directed other departments of his government.
Noting the division which existed in the Church in his day caused by hundreds of years of bishops interpreting the Christian teachings differently, Constantine set out to settle the difficulty. First he turned to Africa where was developing a most bitter schism. This he attempted to set in order by his authority as emperor. He did not accomplish it as a representative of the Lord because he was not yet himself a Christian. He was still a sun-worshipper. He had no ecclesiastical authority and claimed none. But he was all powerful politically. It was by his political authority as emperor that he intervened in the African dispute.
More Civil Power in Church
A short time afterward, again by his authority as emperor and civil ruler of the western half of the Roman Empire, he called a council of all bishops of that part of the empire which was under his control. This meeting was at Arles. Certain of the clergy who were present objected to the decisions made there concerning baptism and the authority of the Church. Constantine resorted to force to bring them into line. A massacre ensued, blood flowed, a number of the objectors who escaped with their lives were banished, but Constantine had his way. In the place of bishops who opposed him he appointed other bishops of his own choice and by his political authority as emperor. But this was only the beginning of installation of bishops by civil rulers.
He called a council of all bishops of the Church to settle the Alexandrian dispute over the doctrine of the nature of God. He listened to the arguments of the contending bishops. He favored the Athanasian side. The Arians who still objected were banished and he appointed new bishops in place of them. And by what power? By divine authority? He had none. He acted as emperor and the authority by which he appointed these bishops was political, not divine. They became appointees of Constantine, not of the Lord.
In this Nicene council Constantine—uninspired, unbaptized, still a sun-worshipper, a man who had committed murder within his own family—by his political power took the steps which gave to later Christianity its doctrine concerning the nature of the God whom they worshipped. This Nicene Creed is still used by many Christian churches today, and almost all of them believe in the same conclusions.
Even then, Constantine could not make up his mind to stay with his decision, for afterward he vacillated from one opinion to the other, part of the time supporting Arius and his view and at other times sustaining Athanasius. The persuasion of his friends alternately changed the official doctrine of the Church from one side to the other over a period of a few short years.
Let every honest Christian ask himself if God directs his Church through such a man as Constantine!
Part of State Government
Frequently after that, emperors appointed some of the clergy and deposed others, set in order various matters within the Church, called councils, and otherwise directed what was called the work of God. They did so because they had made the Church a department of the Roman Empire, which made them the head of the Church, and all they did was by political but not divine power. Can anyone say then that the Church was still the Church of God? Or was it the Church of Caesar?
The Roman Emperors claimed for themselves the right of convoking councils. They supported this pretension on the principle that the maintenance of order and tranquility in the empire devolved on them, and that, in consequence, they had to end controversies that disturbed this order. . . . It was also the emperor who confirmed the decisions of the council and gave them the force of law for the whole empire."
Another emperor who becomes a case in point was Phocas, who, in the seventh century, became displeased with Cyriacus, bishop of Constantinople, divested him of his title as the universal head of the Church, and conferred this title upon Boniface III, the Roman pontiff who accepted it. By what authority we ask? Again it was political. The record does not show whether the Emperor Phocas was even a member of the Christian Church.
In the middle of the sixth century, Justinian I assumed control of the Church as part of his empire, and took from the people their right of "common consent" in local matters within the Church; declared that only the clergy should have a voice in the affairs of the Church, and said further that the only voice the clergy could have was to accept and ratify the acts of the emperor in the direction of religious matters. If they refused to comply, they would be banished.
During this early period there developed a feeling among the bishops that those who presided in large centers of population should have pre-eminence over those in country towns and villages.
This led to the practice of bishops in metropolitan areas assuming authority over the bishops of the villages and towns, which changed the former equality that had existed among the bishops in the beginning. Also when new congregations were organized in suburbs of these metropolitan areas, the metropolitan bishops appointed others to preside there. These latter became known as bishops of the suburbs and the fields.
Rivalry Among Bishops
Subsequently there developed extreme rivalry between the metropolitan bishops, until at last there were only two remaining in the contest—the bishop of Rome and the bishop of Constantinople. The other three contenders, at Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem were eliminated by the conquest of the Arabs. Finally they parted company, after excommunicating each other, and two principal Christian Churches resulted, the Eastern Church with headquarters in Constantinople, and the Western or Roman Church with headquarters at Rome. Thus we have today two so-called Catholic or universal Churches, each one claiming to be the true Church, each repudiating the other as heretic.
The western Church developed faster than did the Church in the east. Through aggressive policies, the bishops of Rome soon became dominant in political matters, especially as the Roman Empire began to crumble. This gave them vast powers among the European nations. They directed the policies of the kings of those lands, collected taxes and interfered in the internal affairs of the nations.
This developed a resentment among some of the rulers of western Europe which added strength to Martin Luther in his fight against the sale of indulgences.
The story of Luther is well known and need not be reviewed in great detail here. As he sought to reform the existing Church he was rebuked and excommunicated.
His actions interested some of the German princes, while others were strongly opposed to him. King Henry the VIII of England likewise joined the forces in opposition to Luther, and published a book in defense of the pope for which he received the title "Defender of the Faith" which still is carried by British kings.
One of Luther's closest friends was Prince Frederic the Wise, elector of Saxony, who protected him from assassination and defended him before the emperor. Frederic was a peacemaker. But in 1525 he died and was succeeded by his brother Prince John, who was of a different temperament. John believed in the teachings of Luther. He clearly saw that Luther's views and those of the pope were incompatible. One or the other must be abandoned. He decided to withdraw his support from the pope and sustain Luther.
Church Formed by Civil Power
To accomplish this he decided to organize a church separate and distinct from that of Rome. He appointed Luther and his friend Philip Melanchthon to draw up the form of worship, set up the type of church government which would conform to Luther's views, and decide upon the duties and salaries of the clergy.
This the reformers gladly did, and the new Church came into being under the sponsorship of Prince John of Saxony. Ordinances were performed and sermons were preached, and the people were directed by this new Church in their religious activities. And by what authority was this new Church established? By the authority of Prince John of Saxony. And who was he? A political figure. Did he hold the necessary divine authority to establish the Church of God? He claimed none, and had none. His only authority was political.
Other German princes fell into line, although there were some who remained loyal to the pope. But the new church, called after Luther, was under way. Many of its doctrines seemed as remote from the scriptures as were those they sought to "reform," but they became popular nevertheless and the movement spread.
In Scandinavia the kings themselves also took a leading part in stripping the Catholic bishops of their power, setting up the Protestant Churches in their own countries, and bestowing authority upon them to carry on their work. They made the new Protestant faith the state religion of their realms, and the people accepted it. Was there divine authority involved in this establishment of a new Church? None. It was the political authority of the kings which brought about the change.
In Switzerland, where Calvin and Fartel worked out the reformation, again the political power took a hand. The civil government (Council) of Geneva took over the religious authority of the Catholic bishop and effected the change to Protestantism.
The change, though disguised in a religious habit was yet essentially political. For the Council which abolished the bishop had made itself heir to his faculties and functions; it could only dismiss him as civil lord by dismissing him as the ecclesiastical head of Geneva and in so doing it assumed the right to succeed as well as to supersede him in both capacities . . . . Because of the change the civil authority became ecclesiastical.
Another Formed by Civil Power
At about this time King Henry the Eighth in Britain wished to change wives. Although the story is denied in certain circles, history clearly indicates that he made an appeal to Rome for a divorce, was denied, and in anger seized the property of the Church; and with the cooperation of Parliament, organized a Church of his own, the Established Church of England.
Again we ask, was it done by divine authority? It was a political act. Then was this the Church of God which had been established, or was it manmade to suit the convenience and needs of the king?
Branches of the Protestant movement developed in other nations. All were efforts either to reform the existing Church or to organize a new church, based on individual views gained from a private reading and interpretation of the Bible which had so recently been given to the world.
In no case was a new revelation from heaven even claimed. In no case was any restoration of divine authority in the ministry professed. It was admitted on every hand that where the state religions were organized, they were developed and authorized by the political agencies which ruled the land, and therefore possessed only political but not divine authority.
In later periods of the reformation, even as today, certain groups formed Churches of their own entirely out of a desire to read and study the Bible and follow the dictates of their own conscience as a result. These churches had no political significance, but yet in common with the state religions, they claimed no divine authority for their acts either.
Divine Power Comes Only From God
If none of these Churches possessed any divine authority, by what right could they perform the saving ordinances of God?
The scriptures plainly teach that only those divinely commissioned may perform ordinances which are acceptable to the Lord. Many are the instances wherein the scripture shows that God rejected unauthorized ministers. (I Samuel 13:8-15; I Chron. 13:9-10; Matt. 7:21-29; Acts 19:1-6; Acts 19:13-16)
This lesson was taught well to the Hebrews. In the fifth chapter of the epistle by that name the writer discusses the priesthood and its functions.
"AND NO MAN TAKETH THIS HONOR UNTO HIMSELF, BUT HE THAT IS CALLED OF GOD AS WAS AARON."
That is the pattern of the Lord. No man can minister in the ordinances and priesthood of God except he be called as was Aaron.
How was Aaron called?
By turning to the 28th chapter of Exodus we learn the facts. In the first verse God says: "And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office."
These words were spoken to Moses, who was a prophet of God. The Lord gave him the instructions quoted above, authorizing him to call and ordain to the ministry, Aaron and his four sons.
That constituted revelation—revelation at the time, for a particular need.
The pattern for calling men to the ministry was made clear. God would give a revelation to his prophet, and the prophet under that direction would call to the work the individual thus designated.
We read in Hebrews as above quoted that no man can have this honor, that is, of serving in the ministry of God, unless he is called as was Aaron.
That means then that in the true Church of God there must be a prophet, there must be current revelation, by which men are called into the work by God himself.
As In Days of Peter and Paul
Note how this fits into the situation as it existed in the days of Peter and Paul. The latter wrote an epistle to Timothy, who evidently was a young man. Paul counselled Timothy to allow no man to despise his youth. Then he said: "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee BY PROPHECY, with the laying on of hands of the presbytery." (I Tim. 4:14)
In the time of Martin Luther and King Henry the Eighth, there was not a man on earth who believed that God was then giving revelations. On the contrary, they taught that the heavens were sealed, revelation was ended, there were no more prophets, all of the word of God was in the Bible.
Since there was no revelation, and since there were no prophets, how could men be called of God to the ministry? Obviously they were not. Their calls were from men in political authority, or from those who assumed the right to organize Churches of their own.
Without divine authority, man cannot officiate for the Lord.
Without a divinely approved ministry there can be no Church of God on earth.
Without revelation through a living prophet there can be no approved ministry.
Societies may be organized, and some of them may be called Churches. But if there is no divine direction according to the plan which God has provided, we must admit that the societies or Churches are man-made organizations without divine appointment.
Such groups may accomplish much good. They may be a great comfort to their members. But when it comes to saving souls in the Kingdom of God, that is a different matter.
Lost Books
From the doctrinal divisions of the early reformers, many Churches today have renounced the sectarianism and tried to rely exclusively on the Bible and their interpretation of the teachings therein to guide the doctrines of their church. This has not done much to bring about a unity of the faith, as doctrinal differences still abound. Does anyone believe that with the changes the early Christian church went through that it’s scripture was unaffected? Not only did the church that Christ establish fall under persecution and eventual corruption, but so did the scripture.
Any reading on the history of the current compilation of the Bible will reveal that there were hundreds of different manuscripts that were asserted as authoritative, and councils of uninspired men convened to argue about which ones would be accepted. The apocrypha contains some of those books that were never included. But the book that Christians base their faith, while it may have been written under inspiration, was certainly not compiled under inspiration. Since no original texts exist, one must also believe that nor corruptions have crept in from manual transcription and language translation. It must be claimed that the Bible survived in perfection based on faith. That is a faith I do not have after seeing the degradation of the Christian church itself.
Even more convincingly, there are books that may never have made it to the councils’ editing room floors, further impeding their ability to make wise judgments. The apostles lived and directed the early Christian church for almost 100 years after the death of Christ. Does anyone truly believe that only 26 epistles or accounts are all they accomplished? Practically every Israelite prophet was persecuted in their time, so why do we assume that all their writings were held in reverence? The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they were considered authentic and valuable, but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9, 2 Cor 13:1); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16); an account of Moses and the Egyptians that was either lost or changed into the account in our current Bible (2 Tim 3:8); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14) but not referenced anywhere in the Old Testament. To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text, but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22).
Matthew's reference to a prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (2:23) is interesting when it is considered that our present O.T. seems to have no statement as such. (There is a possibility, however, that Matthew alluded to Isaiah 11:1, which prophesies of the Messiah as a Branch from the root of Jesse, the father of David. The Hebrew word for branch in this case is netzer, the source word of Nazarene and Nazareth. Additional references to the Branch as the Savior and Messiah are found in Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; these use a synonymous Hebrew word for branch, tzemakh.)
The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that he gave to his people in former times, and remind us that the Bible, in its present form, is rather incomplete. It gives insight into what many scholars believe may have been the last verse chronologically to have been written which has found its way into our current version of the bible “and there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen” (John 21:25).
Strait Is the Gate of Christ
Christians state that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. In him and in him alone is there redemption. But he works in his own way. God's way is not man's way. The Lord provided that salvation should come through his gospel, functioning through his Church, wherein are prophets and Apostles for the "perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the ministry and for the edifying of the body of Christ.'' (Ephesians 4:11-13)
There are hundreds which claim to be such. Simply open up your phone book and you can have a choice of many Gods and Churches, all claiming to be the True Church of Jesus Christ.
But where is there such a Church? How will we recognize it when we see it?'
Let us remember the lesson of Paul to the Corinthians already quoted. The Church is likened to a human body. It must be all fitly joined together." No one part can say to another, "I have no need of thee."
Is there such a Church upon the earth?
Until a little more than a hundred-seventy years ago, there was not. It had been lost through the falling away I have just described. Mormons believe that in 1830 the Almighty restored his Church to earth again. He has raised up modern prophets and Apostles to direct the work.
Under the guidance of heaven they organized his Church according to the pattern of ancient times. The powers of the priesthood have been brought back to earth by the ministry of angels. All the gifts and powers of former days have been restored. They did not come from any existing organization. They did not come from any manmade society, nor from any political unit. They came from heaven. Holy angels brought them to earth, pure and undefiled.
This restored Church is known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with headquarters in Salt Lake City. Its organization meets all of the specifications of the scripture. It possesses the divine priesthood of God. It is headed by prophets and Apostles as was the Church in the days of Peter and Paul.
It invites all men to receive its message, for it is a message of salvation for everyone, whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free.
In a pamphlet entitled The Strength of the Mormon Position, the late Elder Orson F. Whitney, of the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, related the following incident under the heading "A Catholic Utterance":
Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: "You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."
So What Does All This Have to do with Mitt Romney?
So you see, its true, Mormons really aren’t Christians. Not in “traditional” sense anyways… But if a Christian is one who believes in Christ, then surely they qualify. Unless they believe in other things Mormons have been accused of believing. Such as believing in a different Christ, or polytheism, or space aliens… Interesting, but not the purpose of this blog.
But now I am digressing onto a theological pulpit. But so will all the commentators who can’t keep on the topic at hand. In this election, don’t let simple statements such as “Mormons aren’t Christians” allow you to be distracted, because they might indeed be true, just not in the sense that is implied. They may be lies. They may be taken out of context. There is too much information on the web these days, both accurate and spun, to know what is true and what is not if you don’t have some background in the subject. Just make sure you don’t believe the first thing you read, especially not a mere emotional statement given to repudiate a religion that a spiteful commentator obviously doesn’t believe in. After all, isn’t the truth what we are all looking for?
Chances are you won’t find much of it on blog postings about Romney…
Now, as I had promised to say how all this applies to the election, I will first point out that I myself am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I believe everything I have just been elaborating on in the past few pages. But I will not vote for Romney simply because he is a member of the same church I belong to. You have to do more than belong to my church to get my vote. Harry Reid is a case in point. He claims to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, yet he makes political decisions and leads others in ideas that I hold to be in direct conflict with my beliefs.
Because we live in a republic (not a democracy, more on this another time…) we elect men and women to run the government in our stead. We DON’T elect people to represent us. We use the principle that Plato claimed as the basis of his utopian society of having the wisest among the citizens control the government. Rather than having those in power simply make decisions based on what a majority of their constituents want, we are to elect people who are wise and will do the best job at keeping the government to its original intended purpose. That is a fine distinction that most people do not understand. The purpose of a democracy is majority rule. The purpose of a republic is to seek the wisest leaders, at the selection of the populace.
That today’s politicians repeatedly claim to be representing their citizens rather than claiming to govern well is quite revealing.
Thus, there are two conditions that any candidate should meet before getting your vote. First, they must have the same political beliefs. Secondly, you should trust them as honest men. If a man holds your beliefs but is a scoundrel, putting him in office will not keep good government. If a man is honest but the political equivalent of Lenin, electing him will not keep good government.
There is no religious test for political office. Unfortunately, with all the Mormon bashing spewed forth by people who claim to be conservative whenever Romney is discussed, the two main tests are being ignored. It doesn’t matter what one’s religion is. I’d even vote for a Muslim if I thought him honest and strong on the war against Islamic radicals.
Does Romney meet the qualifications of honesty and political “right”ness? Well, I think he is the front runner, but since I don’t have to decide until election day, I’ll sit back and see what he stands for.
It’s a embarrassment that people who claim to be mainstream Christians won’t.
June 26, 2007
Rex Ray said…
Scott,
Ah, you must be bored to write me again. I don’t know why we bother each other as obvious neither of us will change. Sort of like a dog barking at a shadow. The shadow won’t go away and the dog won’t stop barking. That doesn’t quite fit us though; as we argue which of us is the dog.
I skimmed what you wrote and agreed with all of it until you wrote: “Was that quorum to go on as a quorum of eleven or was it to be restored to its original number of twelve? And if no one was named to succeed Judas, and still another Apostle died, leaving only ten in the group, was the quorum to go on with only ten? And if another, and another and another died, was the quorum so soon to disappear? What was the intention of the Lord? The pattern established by the Savior provided that there should be twelve Apostles and new men were appointed to succeed the original members as they passed away.”
The answer to your first 3 questions is YES. The “intention of the Lord” was for all 11 to drink of the cup that He drank.
See, you’re confusing Jesus doing what Peter and the others did when they DISOBEYED Christ. What did Jesus tell them to do: (Luke 24: 49) “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but TARRY ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
Scott, what does “tarry” mean? It means ‘stay.’ But it also has a meaning of ‘do nothing.’ Did Jesus tell them to select someone to replace Judas? We really don’t know do we? But we CANNOT assume because they did that it was a “pattern established by the Savior.” We CAN see the results of WHO they chose (Matthias) was never mentioned in the Bible again. Looking at history, if Jesus wanted Judas to be replaced, He would have chosen the first martyr, Stephen.
Right now, I don’t have time to read the rest of what you wrote. The other day, I got a Mormon to read Ezekiel 37 about the reunion of Israel, and he agreed the “two sticks” DID NOT represent the Book of Mormon. Once you leave the main road to go 90 degrees…it’s hard to ever find the main road again.
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